Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
Downsides to molybdenum?
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It is to keep metallic additives from "poisoning" the catilytic converter by leaving ash deposits.
In a newer tighter engine that burns no oil, this may not be a big deal.
If the efficiency of the cat drops, your car pollutes more.
In a newer tighter engine that burns no oil, this may not be a big deal.
If the efficiency of the cat drops, your car pollutes more.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Oil mfrs use all sorts of technology and chemicals.
Costs are one reason, and of course effectiveness to meet ratings/class.
As I understand it, moly is not cheap.
Costs are one reason, and of course effectiveness to meet ratings/class.
As I understand it, moly is not cheap.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Relating to your observations about moly & sulphur (not to hijack the thread), I saw a PQIA June 2012 test of Amsoil 5W30 Sig. Series oil posted on BITOG that listed 3559 ppm of sulphur that seemed inordinate to me. Is that # possible or was it an anomaly or testing error? It would seem to me that # would be very detrimental to a cat.
Quote:
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Relating to your observations about moly & sulphur (not to hijack the thread), I saw a PQIA June 2012 test of Amsoil 5W30 Sig. Series oil posted on BITOG that listed 3559 ppm of sulphur that seemed inordinate to me. Is that # possible or was it an anomaly or testing error? It would seem to me that # would be very detrimental to a cat.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Your knowledgeable input is always appreciated. Why then, did the SM version of Toyota's 0W20 utilize over 500 ppm of moly, along with a couple of other Japanese
manufacturers in current SN formulations ?
Quote:
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Your knowledgeable input is always appreciated. Why then, did the SM version of Toyota's 0W20 utilize over 500 ppm of moly, along with a couple of other Japanese
manufacturers in current SN formulations ?
MolaKule
Staff member
Hallmark,
If you are referring to:
http://www.pqiamerica.com/2012 April results/April2012A.html
I see nothing out of whack as Amsoil uses a lot of Calcium sulfonates which contribute to the sulfur content.
If you are referring to:
http://www.pqiamerica.com/2012 April results/April2012A.html
I see nothing out of whack as Amsoil uses a lot of Calcium sulfonates which contribute to the sulfur content.
Use quality oil and sleep well with respect to moly levels.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Why then, did the SM version of Toyota's 0W20 utilize over 500 ppm of moly, along with a couple of other Japanese
manufacturers in current SN formulations ?
I call it the "kitchen sink" syndrome and because they are probably using something other than the Infineum trimolecular MoDTC, which does not need as high a level of treatment as other MoDTC's.
Different formulating strategies for different folks.
Why then, did the SM version of Toyota's 0W20 utilize over 500 ppm of moly, along with a couple of other Japanese
manufacturers in current SN formulations ?
I call it the "kitchen sink" syndrome and because they are probably using something other than the Infineum trimolecular MoDTC, which does not need as high a level of treatment as other MoDTC's.
Different formulating strategies for different folks.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Why then, did the SM version of Toyota's 0W20 utilize over 500 ppm of moly, along with a couple of other Japanese
manufacturers in current SN formulations ?
I call it the "kitchen sink" syndrome and because they are probably using something other than the Infineum trimolecular MoDTC, which does not need as high a level of treatment as other MoDTC's.
Different formulating strategies for different folks.
Is what they are using/used any more or less effective/beneficial than the Infinium trimolecular MoDTC ?
Quote:
Why then, did the SM version of Toyota's 0W20 utilize over 500 ppm of moly, along with a couple of other Japanese
manufacturers in current SN formulations ?
I call it the "kitchen sink" syndrome and because they are probably using something other than the Infineum trimolecular MoDTC, which does not need as high a level of treatment as other MoDTC's.
Different formulating strategies for different folks.
Is what they are using/used any more or less effective/beneficial than the Infinium trimolecular MoDTC ?
Originally Posted By: Donald
Use quality oil and sleep well with respect to moly levels.
My brand of oil has 875 PPM Moly, that is why I ask. It ran incredible in an old vehicle I had, and it runs great in my new vehicle. The oil seams fresh and new at 5k miles. I will get a UAO on it when it hits 7500 to make sure this is the oil for me or not. But just curious of the Moly level.
Use quality oil and sleep well with respect to moly levels.
My brand of oil has 875 PPM Moly, that is why I ask. It ran incredible in an old vehicle I had, and it runs great in my new vehicle. The oil seams fresh and new at 5k miles. I will get a UAO on it when it hits 7500 to make sure this is the oil for me or not. But just curious of the Moly level.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Is what they are using/used any more or less effective/beneficial than the Infinium trimolecular MoDTC ?
I would say not necessarily more or less effective/benficial - just different. If you are using the timolecular MoDTC then your overall formulation strategy is different then if you are using other kinds.
The final formulation will probably deliver similar benefits, just using a different chemical strategy.
Using more or less MoDTC sometimes also has to do with some of the other objectives of the formula (for example ZDDP content) if you need to reduce ZDDP (as many formulas have done) then you may also need to change the type or quantity of MoDTC as they often are working together to get the final results.
Is what they are using/used any more or less effective/beneficial than the Infinium trimolecular MoDTC ?
I would say not necessarily more or less effective/benficial - just different. If you are using the timolecular MoDTC then your overall formulation strategy is different then if you are using other kinds.
The final formulation will probably deliver similar benefits, just using a different chemical strategy.
Using more or less MoDTC sometimes also has to do with some of the other objectives of the formula (for example ZDDP content) if you need to reduce ZDDP (as many formulas have done) then you may also need to change the type or quantity of MoDTC as they often are working together to get the final results.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Is what they are using/used any more or less effective/beneficial than the Infinium trimolecular MoDTC ?
I would say not necessarily more or less effective/benficial - just different. If you are using the timolecular MoDTC then your overall formulation strategy is different then if you are using other kinds.
The final formulation will probably deliver similar benefits, just using a different chemical strategy.
Using more or less MoDTC sometimes also has to do with some of the other objectives of the formula (for example ZDDP content) if you need to reduce ZDDP (as many formulas have done) then you may also need to change the type or quantity of MoDTC as they often are working together to get the final results.
Very good answer.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Is what they are using/used any more or less effective/beneficial than the Infinium trimolecular MoDTC ?
I would say not necessarily more or less effective/benficial - just different. If you are using the timolecular MoDTC then your overall formulation strategy is different then if you are using other kinds.
The final formulation will probably deliver similar benefits, just using a different chemical strategy.
Using more or less MoDTC sometimes also has to do with some of the other objectives of the formula (for example ZDDP content) if you need to reduce ZDDP (as many formulas have done) then you may also need to change the type or quantity of MoDTC as they often are working together to get the final results.
Very good answer.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Quote
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Bump because it's relevant to another discussion ongoing
Quote
Moly levels have been going down in our oils, and many astutely have said that newer Moly's are effective at lower levels, but my run-on question is there any downside to having a lot of Moly in your oil??? What would be your guess on PPM that Moly would start to become harmful? Thanks
This is just my formulating philosophy, but for daily driver Light Truck and PCMO oils, I see no reason to use more than 150 ppm of MoDTC. More moly doesn't get you anymore friction reduction by using more.
Now for racing, where the oil is changed frequently, yea, let's go whole hog up to 1000 ppm.
The only downside I see from using a lot of moly, is that if you use a lot of moly and don't change oil frequently, you could increase acid levels from the sulfur in MoDTC.
Bump because it's relevant to another discussion ongoing
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