Downsides to bypass filters

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All the oil rings were coked in place. Half the compression rings were stuck in their grooves. Had to bore 0.040" to clean up the cylinders.

OK, am I nuts or doesn't this sound like a PCV problem? If there's lots of oil getting sucked into the intake the cylinders will get carboned up and so will the piston rings. This is a common problem with the Saturn S-series and it causes oil consumption. The main reason why I have a PCV catch can installed. I don't think the bypass filter was to blame!
 
I am not blaming the bypass filter. The 68 Nova was used to make two 4.5 mile trips a day for about 16 years, too. During about 3 of those years, I changed the TP filter once a month and did not change the oil more than once a year. I let the oil chemistry get bad and that is what stuck the rings. It is difficult to believe how hard the deposits are that blocked the piston oil holes for oil control rings grooves. I still have 5 of the pistons. The vat at the machine shop cleaned up everthing else. I gave one of the pistons to a kid who is now thinking of going to CalTech for graduate school, so it has been a while.

I am running a 1995 DOHC Saturn with Total Seal gapless piston rings. Half the friction of a standard ring pack is said to be the oil control rings. I put in low tension oil control rings and it uses oil (600 MPQ), just as Total Seal thought it would. The plugs look normal. Runs great and will deliver 37 MPG on the highway with a little care. The blowby is nearly zero. I was hoping reduced blowby would keep the oil looking cleaner longer, but it didn't. I put gapless rings in at 87,000 miles when the engine spun a rod bearing. I noticed that the top compression rings did not have sharp edges. Turns out that the rings were made with a barrel shape facing the cylinder wall and the rings had not worn enough flatten out the shape. The end gaps were all right at the minimum, so I reused them. Have 100,000 on the rebuild.

Does anyone have experience with Total Seal piston rings?
 
quote:

I let the oil chemistry get bad and that is what stuck the rings. It is difficult to believe how hard the deposits are that blocked the piston oil holes for oil control rings grooves. I still have 5 of the pistons.

Let me guess... The piston that broke was closest to the PCV valve right? How do you know the oil chemistry went bad, did you do an oil analysis after the engine broke? Just trying to know the truth.


The Saturn S-Series engine runs hot and therefore oxidizes the oil. If you want to keep the oil in better shape you have to install an oil cooler.

I have an S-series DOHC car and when I put a Frantz on it - the oil burning reduced down to a trickle. I also had a PCV catch can installed later; when this was installed I collect the oil in the PCV system, dump it back into the sump and my intake is a lot better. Not only did my oil consumption drop to near nil, I didn't get a sticking throttle body valve every 10k miles.

If I had some more money I would get an external cooler for my transmission, and use the OEM trans cooler for the engine oil. Anyway, I digress...

[ February 01, 2006, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: mjo ]
 
Hi again, Boyce,

About your 68 Nova that took a turn for the worst. That car is 13 years older than I am. I'm assuming that by that time they were using PCV instead of venting the crankcase gasses out into the open. But the cars were still carbed and didn't have EGR. Well, EGR works by introducing water generated by the engine (in the exhaust gasses) into the intake. Water, as some of us know, steam cleans the engine and is useful in removing carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. Well, if your car did have a PCV problem and was sucking oil into the engine, it would have been especially hard on the engine with the absence of EGR. Carbon deposits covering the cylinder walls, coking your rings, with no method to mitigate the problem. IMHO, EGR is probably one of the several contributing factors in why engines nowadays last much longer than they used to.
 
Fordcv03 & acewiza,

One of the downsides to using a Bypass system is that you have to make sure the engine is running well without problems that will cause you to drain the oil early, such as fuel leaks, coolant leaks and hole in the air filter which will give high silicon counts in used oil analysis, make sure the engine is in good running condition, and also it would make sense to not use a Bypass system on a engine that is troublesome, such as some of the GM engines that have coolant leaks that crop up, I would think twice about using a Bypass on a engine that is known to have problems, just my 2 cents, good luck!

Bill
 
I have to disagree with you Bill, the use of bypass filters, especially TP or PT filters, that can absorb water, would be better to have on the car, to absorb the moisture, than to not have on, and let the moisture stay in the engine. Although I do see what you saying, bypass filters are made to extend OCI’s, I think that bypass filters are also a way of better protecting the engine, which in turn leads to longer OCI’s.
 
Shaman,

Bypass filters absorb some water, do Bypass filter absorped anti-Freeze?
Even if Bypass Filter absorp Anti-freeze, do you want anti-freeze in your engine?
When I mentioned coolant above I meant Ethylene Glycol and the other anti-freeze base fluids that are used in coolants, the point is to have a properly running engine with no problems that will shorten the OCI, if a engine is working properly, the water should be boiled off or if you do a lot of short trip driving then you need a good highway trip to boil off the water.
Using a Bypass filter system with a problematic engine is self defeating, sure the extra oil that a Bypass system adds to a sump helps but the purpose of a Bypass is to clean the oil more and run the oil longer then the typical OCI length.

If I were to add a Bypass system to my vehicle, I would make sure the engine is running without any of the problems I mentioned earlier, therefore getting the most out a Bypass system.
 
BIll, I am agreeing with your point of putting one on a perfectly running engine, I am just saying that the TP is a better damage preventer than a FF alone. I don't think anyone wants coolant in their oil, but I would much rather have a roll of TP or PT inline to absorb it if it happened than a dinky FF.

As MJO stated, it would be easier to identify one that occured after installation with a TP filter. Most people(from what I have read) change the TP more often than most here change oil, so unless it (coolant) showed up on a dipstick, or the car was running funny, it could be a while until you noticed it. A BP filter would scream you have a leak when you pulled it out.
 
Bill, I think you have a very good point which is that you need to pay special attention to the engine for a while after you first install the BP filter. Starting with an engine that you know does not have any major problems is also a good idea in order to get used to reading the used tissue with the TP and PT BP filters. Getting an oil analysis just before the BP filter installation is an even better idea - it will provide another dimension of assurance that there are no engine problems.

The bypass filter won't mask a coolant leak completely, but with the tissue roll filters, it will give you additional methods to know when one occurs. Let's say that the water pump is going out and your head gasket is warping and spitting some coolant into the oil. The TP and PT bypass filters will absorb it and show signs that they absorbed water. You have to remove the used roll from the Frantz in order to observe the signs it absorbed water. You don't have to do this with the Gulf Coast filters - just pop the top off. I'm not sure about the Motorguard. The roll will have some distortion on the surface closest to the inlet of the BP filter. From my experience, you can also tell if the engine is wearing by using a bright light and noting any shiny metal particles on the inlet side of the roll. If the BP filter contains as much water as it can hold, it plugs (if you used the dense TP tissue that Frantz calls for). A plugged bypass filter is cold. So if the tissue suggests wear do a thorough check of your car for signs of an oil/coolant mix and make sure to get an oil analysis done.
 
I think by the time you see coolant in your Bypass filter it may have done damage to the engine, UOA is better at detecting a coolant leak then trying to see it with the naked eye.
If you are trying to use the Bypass as a detector of a coolant leak then I believe you will be very sorry, sort of reminds me of the guy who sqeezed a drop of oil from the dip stick, if it felt gritty then he knew the oil was dirty and changed it, of course, the dirt chewed up the bearings in the engine, sure the Bypass filter media will let you see whats in there but by the time you do see a problem...
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So, using a Bypass filter to check the engine condition?
Instead of using Oil Analysis?
Suppose everything looks fine but you have a nitration problem?
Can you see high nitration by looking at a Bypass filter element?
Or high silicon count in the oil?
Silicon is pretty fine, don't believe you can see it or feel it with your fingers.
I do not believe using a Bypass filter to check for problems in engines is a good idea except for the obvious.
I think the Bypass filter set-up should be used to keep the lubricant cleaner and to help get a longer OCI out of the lubricant,
but not for checking the condition of the engine.

[ February 04, 2006, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Bill ]
 
quote:

used oil analysis is better at detecting a coolant leak then trying to see it with the naked eye. If you are trying to use the Bypass as a detector of a coolant leak then I believe you will be very sorry

That could be true. Usually oil gets into the coolant system before the coolant gets into the oil. This is because oil usually runs at a higher pressure than coolant.

quote:

Bypass filters absorb some water, do Bypass filter absorped anti-Freeze?

I wonder if anti-Freeze mixes with oil. I'm not a chemist. If it mixes with oil then I would say no, bypass filters do not absorb anti-freeze and would not mask the anti-freeze levels in the oil on a used oil analysis. Otherwise, the anti-freeze will go where the water is - similar to acids.

quote:

So, using a Bypass filter to check the engine condition?

Well, I'd say you'd have a higher success rate understanding the state of your engine with a TP filter by looking at the TP for installations on smaller engines. Why? Because the roll can stay in there collecting stuff for a longer period of time and if you have a BP filter (like the Gulf Coast Junior) where you don't have to remove the tissue to look at the inlet end of the roll, you can check for signs of water contamination and particles such as sand or metal. This is good enough IMHO for those problems that worsen slowly. This is why I have a Gulf Coast Junior for my engine and a Frantz for my AT. A used oil analysis is a much better idea though if you aren't pinching pennies.

[ February 04, 2006, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: mjo ]
 
fordcv03----Is the car paid for??If so, to heck with the dealer or stealer. It's yours to do as you like. I had a 98 CV LX plus w/HPP package, bought it new and never took it back to the dear after the first week. SOBs want too much for what ever they do. I did all my own maint.(basically the only needed was filters and oil changes on engine, transmission and rear. I ran Amsoil Lubes and their filters from 500 miles till some deer ate me up at 60 mph at night about a year ago.CV got totaled.. Had 81,000 miles on it at that time, However till that happened,it ran like a fine watch. I put Bosch platinum plus 4 spark plugs in. I was gonna put the Amsoil dual remote bypass filter setup on it, but that got put on hold till I get another new one in the future.

If I was you, I'd go with the dual remote/bypass filter setup and Amsoil ASL 5w30 syn oil. Plus, Amsoil synth.a/t fluid and their synth. rear end lube also.

If you have some mechanical aptitude and can follow instuctions fairly well, you shouldn't have any problems doing the install yourself. Plus, You can take pride in during it yourself. And you will get to know your CV better..Good Luck in your future project.
 
Bill, you are missing the point of what I am trying to say.

A bypass filter will keep more stuff out of the oil. If you have a coolant leak, that has not been tested for yet, you have a better chance of getting stuff out of the oil.

A roll of TP will absorb more water than a FF can. The same problems will occur with a coolant leak with or without a BPF. ALL I am saying is that your oil is safer with a BPF than without.

I am not trying to say checking the engines condition with a TP filter alone. I never said that. What I said is the a TP filter can absord water, and you can see what is happening in the engine with the TP filter.
 
I have used a By-pass filter on my vehicle, I have a By-pass system that I am not currently using but plan to, I think a By-pass filters is a good idea to help increase the OCI.

I know a By-pass filter absorbs water but anti-freeze I do not know and apparently no one else knows for sure either, having water in your engine oil not good but having anti-freeze in your engine oil is TERRIBLE!

Better safe then sorry.

I do not think By-pass systems were invented to do the job of an Oil Analysis,
sure you can look at a use By-pass filter element and see a problem but oil analysis sees things we could never see with the naked eye.

I would not want someone looking at this thread to think they can use a By-pass filter to alleviate problems they may have with an engine or to think that they can diagnose engine problems by looking at a By-pass element.

You guys can do what ever you want, it's your car!
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Bill, I agree with some of what you said but not all. Because of your opinions I went back online and did some research into glycol and engine oil. So I learned a bit more about how bad the situation can get when antifreeze begins contaminating engine oil. I found another article from http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com that is invaluable to understanding this scenario.


Here's my reasoning.

The bad news is:

  • quote:

    In fact, a major diesel engine OEM has estimated 53 percent of all catastrophic engine failures are due to coolant leaks.

    Yikes!!
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The good news:
  • quote:

    glycol is not soluble in mineral oil

    therefore glycol should stay in solution and absorb into the TP roll.
  • quote:

    The acids and water that form in crankcase oil as a result of coolant contamination will often disrupt soot dispersancy, even at low soot loading. Fleetguard reports “75 percent of filter plugging complaints from customers involved coolant or moisture in the crankcase.”

    and
    quote:

    in a study by the Fleetguard filter division of Cummins Engine that reported as much as 77 grams of filterable solids are formed when oil is contaminated with coolant containing ethylene glycol at a concentration of just two percent (Figure 4).

    So, if your bypass filter plugs in short order you have definite cause for concern and reason for diagnosing your engine further. Field tests and an oil analysis are necessary.

A couple of inexpensive tests that you can do at home to help determine if you have a coolant contamination other than the obvious signs:

  • quote:

    One test that has gained renewed attention is the blotter spot test.

  • quote:

    Patch Test
    When passing a small amount of solvent-diluted oil through a one-micron membrane you will often see sludge, additive precipitants and other insoluble contaminants present on the membrane surface. The use of a handheld 30-power microscope can help in the examination of the material present.

    So again, the sludge formed by coolant contamination can be seen on the top of a TP bypass filter.

Shaman:
quote:

I am not trying to say checking the engines condition with a TP filter alone.

I'm not saying that either - you won't know the exact condition of your engine without doing an engine teardown.
quote:

I would not want someone looking at this thread to think they can use a By-pass filter to alleviate problems they may have with an engine

crushedcar.gif
AFAIK, You can't use TP to fix broken or worn engine parts (yet). What I am saying is that, with a TP BF installed, you have more tools in your arsenal for finding that engine problem.

Let's see the differences in chasing down a leaking head gasket with and without a TP bypass filter.

Without a TP bypass filter you can find a bad head gasket by:

  • Peering into your coolant reservoir and finding a chocolate shake
  • Finding a chocolate shake mix in your oil/ on your dipstick.
  • Seeing lots of white smoke come out your exhaust and smelling coolant.
  • Cutting open your FF filter and finding lots of swelling & sludge.
  • Doing an oil analysis and/or blotter test.
  • If you are really paranoid you could put some of that fluorescent dye into the coolant??

With a TP bypass filter you can find a coolant leak using all of the aforementioned methods *plus*:

  • TP BF is cold even after some driving - filter is plugged.
  • Used roll in TP BF is twisted or shrunk because of water absorption.
  • ""____________"" has sludge or strange precipitations deposited on one end.

Again, you can pop the top off of a Gulf Coast Junior in a second to see the inlet side of the roll. You can't do this with a Frantz, have to take the whole roll out. Not sure with the Motorguard.

P.S. I earned my Ph.D. with this post!!
 
Wow mjo,

Thank you for going through all of this trouble of reseaching this
BUT I still stand by my words
I do not think a By-pass filter replaces performing a used oil analysis, a used oil analysis can tell you lots more what is seen by the naked eye.

With the information you cited above, you have confirmed for me even more that anyone thinking of using a By-pass filter system should make sure the engine is running in good health before installing the By-pass,
good luck mjo!
 
mjo, the cylinder with the most wear is the front one, just as it was with the 1957 version of the engine my dad had with draft tube. It has a PCV that happens to be above the front cylinder. When the blow-by got to be too much, I put a V8 PCV on to keep oil filler cap from getting white deposits on the bottom side.

BTW, I removed the cooling fan 30 years ago and only install it when I pull a trailer or tow a car. The original design had no vacuum advance at idle. I reconnected the vacuum advance and back the idle down to about 500. The engine would not heat past 210 even in stalled traffic. No A/C other then 4 windows and two vent planes.

I tried the water in the carb. Before I tore the engine down, I let it get good and hot and then started dribbling water from a garden hose sprayer in the air intake. Not much happened, but I let it go on a while. I put in more water and opened the throttle to keep it running. With the throttle about half open, I could run the full stream of water into the air intake and not kill the engine. Wonderful way to generate steam and cool an engine. I wound up driving the car some after that. No change in operation. The combustion chambers looked worse than all the other worn out engines I have worked on. No evidence that water did anything. I expected warped valves. The head went back with the old valves and new guides. I wanted the engine to use about a quart of oil every 2000 miles, but it is running about half that. Use oil? Yep. That way, I am assured of good upper cylinder lubrication. However, the original build had plain steel rings. The rebuild has chrom-moly rings. The cylinder and ring wear rates *should* be much less.

It is my opinion that the water vapor from the PCV is not much compared to 95F air at 95% humidity.

Sorry to hear you are so young by Nova standards. Turns out most people on the planet are younger than the Nova including a couple of professors I have had. I have a 38 year old car and a 35 year old marriage and they are starting to look a lot alike. Trust me on this...
 
i have used the total seal rings on 2 engines. they are incredible. we had a pump engine that we had rebuilt with the total seal rings. when it came back and we fired it up we thought something was wrong after a week. the catch can had nothing in it. we had to dump it every week for years. the catch can was empty because there was zero blowby. even the new engines had to be dumped once a month.
the other one was a toyota 22r in a 4Runner. shoulda kept it. the guy i sold it to now has over 350k on it.

as far as water in the oil goes, whouldn't it be turned into steam bubbles by the 250+ degree oil and squeezed out of the filter and stay that way until it gets back into the engine as long as the temp stays over 212? i would think so. somebody correct me if i am wrong. when i get the Frantz put on my car i will give the roll a good squeeze after every change. if there is water in there, it will seperate right out of the oil.
 
quote:

Originally posted by TP4ME:
http://www.sterkel.org/tdi/amoritization.htm

I see you're running a K&N air strainer. Have you ever held it up to the light to admire the pinholes? Maybe that's where the "thousand points of light" thing came from.
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Yes, you need a bypass alright, but maybe you're just not that one in a thousand...


hmmm,
Either you did not read the whole entry, or I need to reword it. I removed the K&N after K&N corporate got mealymouthed about some concerns. I have 2 "gently used" K&Ns with charger kit if you are interested!
 
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