Door rust problems

[philipp10]

I don't believe most people outside of Ontario (or Minnesota) have a clue as to the extent of salt dumped on our parking lots. See this image? Its not snow. You little Scottish beach town doesn't even hold a candle to the corrosion a parking lot like this does. Add is an almost daily source of moisture in the form of melting snow and bingo, our cars will rust. Basically the undercarriage of our cars is bathed in water and salt from December to April.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: Ducked

Here there's no road salting and very few old cars, so you dont see many rusty ones outside the aboriginal areas. However, my car was owned by a surfer, and has been parked near the beach in onshore typhoonal winds. Think warm sea water pressure wash for a day or two, then OH! Canada might not seem so bad.


So you are claiming that coastal Taiwan is worse for rusting cars than rustbelt Ontario, although there are few rusty cars there?

Dude it's ok if you don't understand rust if you have never lived where they salt the roads. I'm just shocked you would try to make the argument that Ontario is less corrosive than a place where it doesn't even snow, that's laughable.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Originally Posted By: Ducked

Here there's no road salting and very few old cars, so you dont see many rusty ones outside the aboriginal areas. However, my car was owned by a surfer, and has been parked near the beach in onshore typhoonal winds. Think warm sea water pressure wash for a day or two, then OH! Canada might not seem so bad.


So you are claiming that coastal Taiwan is worse for rusting cars than rustbelt Ontario, although there are few rusty cars there?

Dude it's ok if you don't understand rust if you have never lived where they salt the roads. I'm just shocked you would try to make the argument that Ontario is less corrosive than a place where it doesn't even snow, that's laughable.


Nope. I'm claiming that my car is an exception to the general Taiwan rule, because it is

(a) Very old and
(b) Has been exposed to sea salt by the previous owner (and to a lesser extent in my ownership) in warm or hot conditions.

Since you, in your opinion, understand rust so very well, I don't have to explain to you that salt in warm damp conditions is much more conducive to corrosion than sub zero, as in OH! salty Canada

i didn't mention any Scottish seaside towns, (and I wouldn't have been talking about typhoons if I did), though of course its true that you can't get as far away from the sea as you can in OH! salty Canada. Roads in Scotland are salted (actually gritted, a mix of sand and rock salt, looks brown) because of winter icing, but this is intermittent and unpredictable, so the roads are often salty well above freezing.

You have to actually read the words, and understand them, in order to extract the meaning. You also have to have enough basic grasp of geography to be able to distinguish between Taiwan and Scotland, quite different and distinct places.

But there havn't been any wars in either lately, so a N. American wouldn't necessarily be expected to know where they are.

Doode, its OK that you think you have the last word on corrosion based on Canadian conditions. Its OK if that's true. Its OK if it isn't. It doesn't matter.

What's unfortunate is that counsels of perfection like this, if believed, (and they often are, because they hook in to "if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing well" etc received opinion that eveyones programmed with) actually promote corrosion.

If you tell someone that theres no point in doing anything but a sandblast to bare metal and a full repaint, and they believe you, then the chances are they will do nothing, which is what most people do about corrosion.

And if you do nothing about corrosion, you end up with nothing.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: Ducked

Nope. I'm claiming that my car is an exception to the general Taiwan rule, because it is

(a) Very old and
(b) Has been exposed to sea salt by the previous owner (and to a lesser extent in my ownership) in warm or hot conditions.


Originally Posted By: Ducked
Here there's no road salting and very few old cars, so you dont see many rusty ones outside the aboriginal areas. However, my car was owned by a surfer, and has been parked near the beach in onshore typhoonal winds. Think warm sea water pressure wash for a day or two, then OH! Canada might not seem so bad.

That is exactly what you claimed, you said "then OH! Canada might not seem so bad" (as coastal Taiwan). After claiming that there are few rusty cars there.

I may not have the reading skills necessary to teach in a 3rd world school, but I did attend a western university. Your attempts to paint me as an ignorant, war mongering North American is completely uncalled for. It might have made sense against an American, but it just makes you look like a bigoted old man.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Originally Posted By: Ducked

Nope. I'm claiming that my car is an exception to the general Taiwan rule, because it is

(a) Very old and
(b) Has been exposed to sea salt by the previous owner (and to a lesser extent in my ownership) in warm or hot conditions.


Originally Posted By: Ducked
Here there's no road salting and very few old cars, so you dont see many rusty ones outside the aboriginal areas. However, my car was owned by a surfer, and has been parked near the beach in onshore typhoonal winds. Think warm sea water pressure wash for a day or two, then OH! Canada might not seem so bad.

That is exactly what you claimed, you said "then OH! Canada might not seem so bad" (as coastal Taiwan). After claiming that there are few rusty cars there.

I may not have the reading skills necessary to teach in a 3rd world school, but I did attend a western university. Your attempts to paint me as an ignorant, war mongering North American is completely uncalled for. It might have made sense against an American, but it just makes you look like a bigoted old man.


That OK then, since I am a (western university trained) bigoted old man.

Doesn't mean I'm wrong on this issue though.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Your attempts to paint me as an ignorant, war mongering North American is completely uncalled for.


Gets the crowd on your side. Otherwise, it was looking a bit too one-sided.

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
It might have made sense against an American, .....


Yeh. But then the thread would get locked.

OOPS.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Your attempts to paint me as an ignorant, war mongering North American is completely uncalled for.


Gets the crowd on your side. Otherwise, it was looking a bit too one-sided.

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
It might have made sense against an American, .....


Yeh. But then the thread would get locked.

OOPS.


Did you look at the picture of the parking lot I sent? That's salt all over the ground. Now I have done my share of traveling to "coastal areas". I love the ocean. But not once did I see concentrations of salt like that NOR did I ever see a rusty car. Dude, your clueless.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Your attempts to paint me as an ignorant, war mongering North American is completely uncalled for.


Gets the crowd on your side. Otherwise, it was looking a bit too one-sided.

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
It might have made sense against an American, .....


Yeh. But then the thread would get locked.

OOPS.


Did you look at the picture of the parking lot I sent? That's salt all over the ground. Now I have done my share of traveling to "coastal areas". I love the ocean. But not once did I see concentrations of salt like that NOR did I ever see a rusty car. Dude, your clueless.


Look, I DONT CARE if OH! So Salty Canada is saltier than the Quatra Depression, saltier than the Dead Sea, saltier than a salted peanut, saltier than a Portuguese salted cod, saltier than any other very very salty thing, saltier than the saltiest time and place on this or any other salty planet.

If its true, it DOES NOT MATTER.

It doesn't in any way validate your general blanket statement that anything other than full bare metal restoration is completely ineffective against corrosion.

THAT is the point at issue

I've told you that most of my banger-bodging was in Scotland, and you've told me I've never lived anywhere it snows.

It doesn't validate THAT particular bit of cluelessness either.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
It doesn't in any way validate your general blanket statement that anything other than full bare metal restoration is completely ineffective against corrosion.

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
That is why I'm not interested in treating rust, only eliminating it. It is funny that you mention cost effectiveness, according to my math putting any money or effort into treating the symptoms is a complete waste.

Originally Posted By: Ducked
I've told you that most of my banger-bodging was in Scotland, and you've told me I've never lived anywhere it snows.

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Dude it's ok if you don't understand rust if you have never lived where they salt the roads. I'm just shocked you would try to make the argument that Ontario is less corrosive than a place where it doesn't even snow, that's laughable.

 

[Ducked]

Ah, you got me. I said snow instead of salt. So that means they DONT salt the roads in Scotland then? I could have sworn..

Enough already. You never had a real chance of making your case because you started out with an absolute black/white statement, and this isn't that kind of topic.

Its always going to be a balance of cost/effort, effectiveness and the value of the vehicle, and as the latter declines, counsels of perfection become steadily less tenable.

 

[philipp10]

ok, if you are arguing that oil will help in slowing down rust, I completely agree. In fact, if one were to add oil, say once a year before salt season, it would almost completely stop it. You don't have to "remove all the rust" to be effective. Once the air is blocked, the rust stops.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: philipp10
ok, if you are arguing that oil will help in slowing down rust, I completely agree. In fact, if one were to add oil, say once a year before salt season, it would almost completely stop it. You don't have to "remove all the rust" to be effective. Once the air is blocked, the rust stops.

If that were the case, why do cars that have had sheetmetal repairs always seem to rust where they were repaired? If oil spraying rusty cars was effective, cars would not rust out here. If you sprayed it once a week, perhaps but is is going to wash off during the winter on any exposed part of the car.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Originally Posted By: philipp10
ok, if you are arguing that oil will help in slowing down rust, I completely agree. In fact, if one were to add oil, say once a year before salt season, it would almost completely stop it. You don't have to "remove all the rust" to be effective. Once the air is blocked, the rust stops.

If that were the case, why do cars that have had sheetmetal repairs always seem to rust where they were repaired?


Don't see the relevance. You're advocating bare metal restoration. Sheet metal is usually bare metal. If the repair rusts out quick, it wasn't protected adequately. Dunno about elsewhere but in the UK I'd bet many pro repairs have minimal or no protection in unseen areas because they are unseen and the punter just wants to pass the next MOT.

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
If oil spraying rusty cars was effective, cars would not rust out here.


Assumes oil spraying is practiced on a large scale, and that it is completely effective. I dunno about the first, (but its not true in the UK) and no one has claimed the second.

Originally Posted By: maxdustington


If you sprayed it once a week, perhaps but is is going to wash off during the winter on any exposed part of the car.



(a) The door crimps are not an exposed part of the car.
(b) Polymerised vegetable oil does not wash off. You'd have trouble sandblasting it off. Try cleaning a student flat cooker sometime.

The snag in that location is that it might grow mould, which could be a health hazard. That's mostly why I mix with mineral oil (which is fairly effective on its own). I now think I'd alternate them yearly and apply them smoking hot.

More trouble than making a cup of tea but not much more difficult than cooking a pan of chips.

If I wanted to spend some money and could get it I might try an alkyd resin. Theres an Australian brand that I can't remember the name of (Penetrol?) thats supposed to be quite good.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Originally Posted By: philipp10
ok, if you are arguing that oil will help in slowing down rust, I completely agree. In fact, if one were to add oil, say once a year before salt season, it would almost completely stop it. You don't have to "remove all the rust" to be effective. Once the air is blocked, the rust stops.

If that were the case, why do cars that have had sheetmetal repairs always seem to rust where they were repaired? If oil spraying rusty cars was effective, cars would not rust out here. If you sprayed it once a week, perhaps but is is going to wash off during the winter on any exposed part of the car.



because a sheetmetal repair is protected less than what the factory can do. Trust me, if you pour oil inside the door and it penetrates this seam, the rust will slow way down. Not saying it will last forever, but the rate will greatly drop. Rust cannot spread without salt, water and o2. Oil stops all 3.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: Ducked

Don't see the relevance. You're advocating bare metal restoration. Sheet metal is usually bare metal. If the repair rusts out quick, it wasn't protected adequately. Dunno about elsewhere but in the UK I'd bet many pro repairs have minimal or no protection in unseen areas because they are unseen and the punter just wants to pass the next MOT.

The poster made the claim that once no air can get to the rust, the rust stops. What about when there is bondo and paint over the rust? Does that not seal it from the air? The Bondo might not, but the paint and bondo will. You do have to remove all the rust to be effective in corrosive environments, it will come back. As proven by the OP's repair lasting
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Assumes oil spraying is practiced on a large scale, and that it is completely effective. I dunno about the first, (but its not true in the UK) and no one has claimed the second.

Of course it is practiced on a large scale, here in OH! Canada where you can watch the cars rust. I know that Taiwan is more corrosive even though there are less rusty cars there, and no one oil sprays there. But believe it or not a lot of people oil spray their cars here in OH! Canada despite the fact that it is less corrosive than Taiwan. Why you ask? because it is completely effective in stopping rust if you do it every year. If you have thin paint,badges cutting your paint or rusty license plate screws you might still get some rust. Oil spraying not practiced on a large scale....when you make claims without any research it makes you look ridiculous. If no one has claimed the second, why would it even be practiced? On what basis did you make either of these claims? Anecdotal evidence?
Originally Posted By: Ducked

(a) The door crimps are not an exposed part of the car.
(b) Polymerised vegetable oil does not wash off. You'd have trouble sandblasting it off. Try cleaning a student flat cooker sometime.

The snag in that location is that it might grow mould, which could be a health hazard. That's mostly why I mix with mineral oil (which is fairly effective on its own). I now think I'd alternate them yearly and apply them smoking hot.


a) You got me, the crimps are not exposed. I would argue that you probably cannot get oil to where the rust is inside the crimps once the rust starts either. You will be able to when the door skin rusts through through.
b) Here is where we start making wild, unproven claims to defend our other, wild unproven claims. You can sandblast veg oil off of things, I have seen it come off cast iron pans before when you cook Tomatoes in them. You can scrape if off, too. You have not discovered some magical space age coating by heating up veg oil, come on man! Have you even sandblasted anything? Some of things you say are completely ridiculous! How hot do you need to get it to polymerize? Hot enough to melt the paint on the car? How would you apply it hot enough to polymerize on the car without damaging the paint or burning yourself?

But but but I thought veg oil was the ultimate rust proofer, and now you are adding mineral oil? (which I will bet has horrible rust preventive properties, being so thin and not sticky, prove me wrong). Maybe we can add some molten Aluminum foil to this boiling oil concoction and plate our car with Aluminum foil! YEAH! Maybe throw some trash bags in there and we can coat our wheel studs with this advanced composite coating YEAHHHHHHHH! Best part: You will never be able to remove it even with sandblasting!

Now we have to deal with moldy doors because living in North America where we can easily get oils specifically for oil spraying, we are going to use veg oil to rust proof our car. Not to worry though, I hear this is the practice in Taiwan where it is much more corrosive than Ontario, even though there are no rusty cars and no one oil sprays there. Absolutely ridiculous.

The Sunflower oil and Aluminum foil shtick was fun at first, but now it is just the hill a sad old man has chosen to die on. It is resourceful, but not effective being judged by first world standards, sorry buddy. Read and learn, don't just parrot the same old tired methods and then defend them to the death when someone with actual real world experience begs to differ.

No one has mentioned tar yet, I am surprised at that.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Originally Posted By: Ducked

Don't see the relevance. You're advocating bare metal restoration. Sheet metal is usually bare metal. If the repair rusts out quick, it wasn't protected adequately. Dunno about elsewhere but in the UK I'd bet many pro repairs have minimal or no protection in unseen areas because they are unseen and the punter just wants to pass the next MOT.

The poster made the claim that once no air can get to the rust, the rust stops. What about when there is bondo and paint over the rust? Does that not seal it from the air? The Bondo might not, but the paint and bondo will. You do have to remove all the rust to be effective in corrosive environments, it will come back. As proven by the OP's repair lasting
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Assumes oil spraying is practiced on a large scale, and that it is completely effective. I dunno about the first, (but its not true in the UK) and no one has claimed the second.

Of course it is practiced on a large scale, here in OH! Canada where you can watch the cars rust. I know that Taiwan is more corrosive even though there are less rusty cars there, and no one oil sprays there. But believe it or not a lot of people oil spray their cars here in OH! Canada despite the fact that it is less corrosive than Taiwan. Why you ask? because it is completely effective in stopping rust if you do it every year. If you have thin paint,badges cutting your paint or rusty license plate screws you might still get some rust. Oil spraying not practiced on a large scale....when you make claims without any research it makes you look ridiculous. If no one has claimed the second, why would it even be practiced? On what basis did you make either of these claims? Anecdotal evidence?
Originally Posted By: Ducked

(a) The door crimps are not an exposed part of the car.
(b) Polymerised vegetable oil does not wash off. You'd have trouble sandblasting it off. Try cleaning a student flat cooker sometime.

The snag in that location is that it might grow mould, which could be a health hazard. That's mostly why I mix with mineral oil (which is fairly effective on its own). I now think I'd alternate them yearly and apply them smoking hot.


a) You got me, the crimps are not exposed. I would argue that you probably cannot get oil to where the rust is inside the crimps once the rust starts either. You will be able to when the door skin rusts through through.
b) Here is where we start making wild, unproven claims to defend our other, wild unproven claims. You can sandblast veg oil off of things, I have seen it come off cast iron pans before when you cook Tomatoes in them. You can scrape if off, too. You have not discovered some magical space age coating by heating up veg oil, come on man! Have you even sandblasted anything? Some of things you say are completely ridiculous! How hot do you need to get it to polymerize? Hot enough to melt the paint on the car? How would you apply it hot enough to polymerize on the car without damaging the paint or burning yourself?

But but but I thought veg oil was the ultimate rust proofer, and now you are adding mineral oil? (which I will bet has horrible rust preventive properties, being so thin and not sticky, prove me wrong). Maybe we can add some molten Aluminum foil to this boiling oil concoction and plate our car with Aluminum foil! YEAH! Maybe throw some trash bags in there and we can coat our wheel studs with this advanced composite coating YEAHHHHHHHH! Best part: You will never be able to remove it even with sandblasting!

Now we have to deal with moldy doors because living in North America where we can easily get oils specifically for oil spraying, we are going to use veg oil to rust proof our car. Not to worry though, I hear this is the practice in Taiwan where it is much more corrosive than Ontario, even though there are no rusty cars and no one oil sprays there. Absolutely ridiculous.

The Sunflower oil and Aluminum foil shtick was fun at first, but now it is just the hill a sad old man has chosen to die on. It is resourceful, but not effective being judged by first world standards, sorry buddy. Read and learn, don't just parrot the same old tired methods and then defend them to the death when someone with actual real world experience begs to differ.

No one has mentioned tar yet, I am surprised at that.


Dude, no matter how you slice it, rust does NOT form in the absence of air. So its apparent your bondo paint thing is NOT sealed....period.