Does higher price buy better fuel?

[MNgopher]

And in a complicated situation like the OP's, I don't know if there is a clear answer as to who supplies what... Yikes! In this neck of the woods, its easy to show where the 4 terminals are, and which pipeline systems they are connected to (or directly sourced from the refinery next door when operating). Pretty cut and dry (and was previously confirmed when the the Lung Association used to test the fuels from different retailers in this area to point out which ones were "cleaner" - and they sure were made up differently depending on the source.) And from there, it isn't hard to figure out what comes from where... YMMV!

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: MNgopher

And in a complicated situation like the OP's, I don't know if there is a clear answer as to who supplies what... Yikes! In this neck of the woods, its easy to show where the 4 terminals are, and which pipeline systems they are connected to (or directly sourced from the refinery next door when operating). Pretty cut and dry (and was previously confirmed when the the Lung Association used to test the fuels from different retailers in this area to point out which ones were "cleaner" - and they sure were made up differently depending on the source.) And from there, it isn't hard to figure out what comes from where... YMMV!

Yeah. California has a very strict standard for fuel. One blip in the system and we can't purchase fuel from out of state that doesn't meet California Phase 3 RFG. My understanding is that there is fuel produced in California for sale outside the state. Still - even if there can be differences noted in fuel between different refineries, it's still a fungible commodity that gets traded when there's a refinery shutdown or slowdown. Also - the differences in fuels often have to do with crude source, and each refinery is getting different sources every few weeks. There can be also be a difference in energy content, but it's not something that can be consistently managed.

 

[Olas]

If you're concerned about variation in quality, it might be a good idea to keep a fuel can in the car with a mix of mostly toluene for octane, a few percent IPA for water and a bottle of si1/techron for detergency, then you can fill up anywhere and add some magic juice to bring the fuel to an acceptable standard.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Olas

If you're concerned about variation in quality, it might be a good idea to keep a fuel can in the car with a mix of mostly toluene for octane, a few percent IPA for water and a bottle of si1/techron for detergency, then you can fill up anywhere and add some magic juice to bring the fuel to an acceptable standard.

I don't worry too much about it. At least in California we've got a fairly strict standard for fuel, even though we complain about how much more we're paying along with slightly lower fuel economy as a result. The state runs spot check at refineries, fuel terminals, and retail stations. They even have a mobile testing lab complete with test engine that can test octane level using variable compression.

 

[NJ_Car_Owner]

Originally Posted By: Leo99

Originally Posted By: NJ_Car_Owner

In my town we have WaWa (NJ convenience store), Race Line (used to be Hess), Citgo, Exxon, BP and either a Texaco or Shell. We use mostly BP and the prices are all about the same. If the hype of top tier gas is true then paying 1 or 2 cents more for it is not a big deal vs buying other non top tier gas. The service stations were concerned when the WaWa was coming in because of the possibility of gas being a loss leader and they may be slightly cheaper but even though they are usually full the BP also has a ton of people who go to it.

All I use is Wawa gas. It's treated me well.

All my company cars have used WaWa gas, probably put close to 400,000 miles using it. I recently read an article about top tier fuel and it just so happens that BP is part of that and our family has used them almost exclusively because the people at the station are nice to deal with and not the top tier status ... it's just an added benefit. For the past year I have stopped using WaWa gas exclusively in my company cars as I haven't driven the mileage that I was and have used the BP as well because it's convenient. And WaWa coffee is pretty good too!

 

[FZ1]

Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

There is typically one fuel depo in your area. They fill up tankers from Shell, BP, Sunoco, WaWa, RaceTrac and all your other local chains. Swallow that...

I was going to ask this the other day. I consistently feel a little bit of a vibration in the truck whenever I fill up at Kroger. Usually I fill up at murphys (walmart) feels like a bit of a miss at idle, so I don't know. Since I'm in Houston I have a feeling we have more than one fuel dopot. I think some fuels have lower cetane than others causing the vibration at idle. Always runs the best if I run the grey bottle diesel kleen with cetane booster.

I believe it. I used to buy gas at Quick Trip but found my Honda runs better on Shell or Chevron.

 

[TiredTrucker]

All stations pay the same price any given day or hour of the day for fuel. It is a market commodity item. Transportation costs added in to the retail price will vary by distance, as will whatever additives the station wants in the fuel that is added to the stream as it is loaded on the tanker. And the station location has some play in it, as stations that see a lot of interstate traffic tend to price a little higher than a station off the beaten trail. And those fuel terminals that supply the local area, they get their fuel from different refineries, depending on who has fuel in the pipeline. Either way, the brand name on the station, more often than not, is not the brand of fuel you are getting. And the actual brand of fuel varies from time to time. You get whatever got run thru the pipeline to the terminal and the only thing that a station can lay claim to is that the additives that are part of the brand name were added. California has it's own particular weird thing going on that monkeys with the process to an extreme.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

All stations pay the same price any given day or hour of the day for fuel. It is a market commodity item. Transportation costs added in to the retail price will vary by distance, as will whatever additives the station wants in the fuel that is added to the stream as it is loaded on the tanker. And the station location has some play in it, as stations that see a lot of interstate traffic tend to price a little higher than a station off the beaten trail. And those fuel terminals that supply the local area, they get their fuel from different refineries, depending on who has fuel in the pipeline. Either way, the brand name on the station, more often than not, is not the brand of fuel you are getting. And the actual brand of fuel varies from time to time. You get whatever got run thru the pipeline to the terminal and the only thing that a station can lay claim to is that the additives that are part of the brand name were added. California has it's own particular weird thing going on that monkeys with the process to an extreme.

Futures contracts might make things a bit interesting, although that might not be accessible to the station owner. There is specialty fuel where the shipper can insist on having segregated pipeline deliveries and storage, but that's going to cost more money. That could even be done for regular unleaded, but who would want to pay extra for no discrenable benefit? I guess one of the oddities in retail fuel is zone pricing, where the branded station owner is locked into paying a distributor's price based on location. They can fiddle around with the pump prices, but that affects the profit on fuel. I've heard some station owners don't like their higher prices because their customers look at how much they paid and don't want to buy that candy bar or six pack, which is where they hope to make the bulk of their profits. http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/01/business/la-fi-zone-pricing-20130102 Zone pricing is illegal in several states by state law.

 

[Vikas]

Quote:

My Ecoboost powered F150 does monitor the octane of the fuel and provides a number relative to whats finding via feedback from the engine (to prevent LSPI). I have been monitoring this number, and there is a difference depending on brand purchases.

This is really cool! Do you have some pictures showing this? It would be nice if other manufacturers start doing this. This is the ONLY OBJECTIVE way of looking at it. Anything else is b o g u s!

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Vikas

Quote:

My Ecoboost powered F150 does monitor the octane of the fuel and provides a number relative to whats finding via feedback from the engine (to prevent LSPI). I have been monitoring this number, and there is a difference depending on brand purchases.

This is really cool! Do you have some pictures showing this? It would be nice if other manufacturers start doing this. This is the ONLY OBJECTIVE way of looking at it. Anything else is b o g u s!

I found this description: http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=4675.0

 

[y_p_w]

Totally off the wall, but I remember one of these gas stations changing its name overnight. As soon as they did that, they put up a sign that they wouldn't be selling lottery tickets until they took care of their license. I believe they're required to use the name of the station (like Exxon #5697) and they needed to submit that and get word that their license was active again.

 

[MNgopher]

The link y_p_w provided is a pretty good description of what can be monitored on the Ecoboosts. And it is responsive to changes in fuel - within 10 miles of filling up, it will change depending on the gas I've fueled with. It generally remains fairly consistent after that - and noticeably changes and is usually consistent by brand in this market. (Again, one needs to know how fuel is delivered in their particular market - where Tired Trucker is all served by pipeline and terminals - so variation would be expected. In this market, multiple independent tests have consistently shown varied product in this market by brand and refinery source tied to brand (Holiday from Flint Hills, SA/Marathon from Western Refining, BP from Tesoro Mandan (and sometimes Whiting)). That can go out the window in the event of refinery disruptions or shutdowns. It ranges from -1 to 1, with -1 being the "best" in terms of octane, and 1 being the worst. To date, the best I've gotten was on Shell Premium 91 Octane (-0.8) and the worst on Holiday 87 Octane (0.5). Surprises along the way have been Premium BP 93 octane only delivering a -0.6 rating, and Kwik Trip Premium 91 Octane Non-Oxy only delivering a -0.2 (but a boost in fuel mileage, as expected). My particular engine is the 2.7 Ecoboost in a F150. The advertised HP and Tq are based on 87 octane, with a recommendation to use premium for towing.

 

[B320i]

Australia no longer has the capacity to supply its own fuel; our last refinery closed a few years ago now, and all the fuel supposedly comes from the same refinery in Singapore tehse days. Even so, given that my car is sensitive to octane at present (it pings with lower octances), I can tell when what should be "98 RON" is not. The cheapest fuel station for most of the city, about 5 minutes away from me is very high volume, as they're usually cheaper by up to 15-20¢ per/Litre for premium fuels. Yet, my car pings rather notably with their fuel (Caltex). A Shell station, whose price does not vary much, is about 5 minutes away also. It is lower volume, and has the same issue as the Caltex above. 10 minutes away, there are two BP stations within a few minutes of one another. One accepts 4¢/L discount vouchers, the other doesn't. The one that doesn't is 'conveniently' at a shopping centre, and strangely enough, their fuel keeps my car quiet. A few minutes away, the other BP has my car pinging, but not as much Given this experience, and what I'm reading here - I'm certainly inclined to say that even fuel from the same refinery, for the same chain, may not necessarily be the same.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: B320i

Australia no longer has the capacity to supply its own fuel; our last refinery closed a few years ago now, and all the fuel supposedly comes from the same refinery in Singapore tehse days.

BP says they're still operating the Kwinana Refinery in Western Australia. It sounds like the last refinery left. I realize it's a long way to the population centers on the other side of the country, but a pipeline might still be cheaper than transporting it by tanker.

Quote:

http://www.bp.com/en_au/australia/about-us/what-we-do/refining.html Petrol sold in Australia is either refined from crude oil in Australian refineries or imported as a finished product from overseas. We refine crude oil at the Kwinana Refinery in Western Australia. Crude oil is shipped from locations including, the Middle East, West Africa, New Zealand, Indonesia and north-west Australia. In 2012 – 13, Australian refineries supplied around 63 per cent of total Australian demand for petroleum products. The remaining 37 per cent of demand was met by imports. These imported products were sourced from over 20 countries, mainly from Asia.

That information may be outdated, since Chevron closed down a refinery in 2014.....

Quote:

https://www.caltex.com.au/our-company/environment/kurnell-site-conversion In July 2012, Caltex announced a restructure of our supply chain including the conversion of Kurnell refinery to a major import terminal. With this decision, Caltex commenced a major project to transform the Kurnell site to operate as a terminal, including work inside the refinery as well as at our Kurnell wharf and sub berth. On schedule in October 2014, the Kurnell refinery was safely shut down and terminal operations commenced on site.

I suppose you've probably got a completely different situation than we have. At least here, most of the big retail fuel names are attached to a parent company that actually refines oil in this country. And in my state there are strict standards that a state agency can spot check at the refinery, terminal, or retail pump. However, the practical nature of fungible fuel means that there's no incentive to make the base fuel better or worse. Someone is going to find out, whether it's a competitor, the pipeline operator (which has a transportation system that's more like banking than transportation), or government agencies.

 

[B320i]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

BP says they're still operating the Kwinana Refinery in Western Australia. It sounds like the last refinery left. I realize it's a long way to the population centers on the other side of the country, but a pipeline might still be cheaper than transporting it by tanker.

Well, you learn something new every day! Kwinana isn't where I live, but is still a suburb of Perth... Given that, I should know BP has operations down here. That leads to the question as to whether BP supplies other chains in Western Australia or not.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: B320i

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

BP says they're still operating the Kwinana Refinery in Western Australia. It sounds like the last refinery left. I realize it's a long way to the population centers on the other side of the country, but a pipeline might still be cheaper than transporting it by tanker.

Well, you learn something new every day! Kwinana isn't where I live, but is still a suburb of Perth... Given that, I should know BP has operations down here. That leads to the question as to whether BP supplies other chains in Western Australia or not.

Fuel is a fungible commodity. I would certainly make sense that they do - at least from time to time depending on refinery output.

 

[jakewells]

i buy all my fuel from marathon where i live i pay $2.83 for 87 E0 fuel and get 21 mpg if i bought the $2.29 87 E10 at the same station i only get 17 mpg. so i buy the E0 because everything i own runs and performs much better using it. i drive a 94 f150 5.0 btw.