Does cornering power matter?

[fdcg27]

One sees any number of road tests showing cars with really impressive cornering power, sometimes exceeding 1G.
I reflect upon cars with much less cornering power that could be driven through any corner as fast as I wished, like my old MGB, our old '76 Civic, or my W123s, all of which were on skinny high-profile tires, and none of which could do even .7G on the skidpad, according to contemporary road tests.
All of these cars were safe and delightful to drive on an entertaining road.
All would be described as having good handling, and all did their best to keep their driver out of trouble.
A DB engineer was quoted years ago saying that a driver exceeding .7G on a public road was crashing.
Most workaday Hondas, like our 'eighties Civics and our two Accords, fall around .77-.78G, and yet never feel like they lack grip. The Accords have plenty of understeer, while the old Civics were pretty neutral.
What do you all think?
I don't think cornering power is all that importatnt.
Handling and behavior as the limits are approached clearly are.
Cornering power is maybe a little like standing start quarter times, which give a very artificial and one-demensional view of a car's performance, in that it tells you everything about how quickly you can drive a car around a skidpad, and nothing about how the car really is on the road.

 

[bullwinkle]

Great cornering tends to be created through extremely expensive summer-only tires which wear out very quickly (due to the soft compound),require winter tires to drive the vehicle in bad weather, & are very expensive to replace when worn out. Unless you spend a lot of time @ the track I don't see the point of them myself!

 

[fsskier]

With years of Autocross, some racing involvement, etc, it always seemed like lots of cornering power is a safety feature..... but I cannot think of a single time I have used or needed it.

Predictable cornering power seems to be more valuable, our interstate through downtown has an S curve that results in lots of "cars in ditch" and SUV's on their roof's during every rainstorm.
Many of these have nice wide tires, in good condition, but they have surprised their drivers with sudden total loss of traction.

My personal experience with a couple of brands (Firestone, forgotten model and Kelly Charger HR) has revealed a near total loss of traction in even light rain, seemingly about a 90% loss.

I consider this to be horribly dangerous, they would lock up under light braking and slide nearly forever with seeming no retardation at all. Fortunately, I do not tailgate and anticipate my stops well in advance... but after repeatedly verifying their horrible performance, I removed them even though nearly new.

The Charger HR's would not pull a boat up a wet ramp at all, just total wheelspin at light throttle, an all season Goodyear provided what seemed like 4 times the traction.

 

[Captain_Klink]

just a phony way to gain Car and Driver awards, has nothing to do with the real world.

 

[Scott_Tucker]

I would agree that skidpad measurements are not the end-all measure of handling performance. Slalom times would be more applicable to street driving as it is these transient conditions that are common on the street. No standardized magazine test is going to tell you how good the car feels to drive and how much confidence it inspires. Confidence is a much more important attribute in my opinion if the car is twitchy, it's not very fun to drive on mountain roads.

 

[fdcg27]

I'm not even so sure about slalom times, since most of us rarely drive through a matrix of cones.
There is a real "feel" aspect to any car's handling.
As you put it, some cars inspire confidence, while some don't, regardless of how much grip they may have.
Also, the slalom puts a premium on driver skill, as well as his familiarity with the behavior of the car involved.
FWD cars typically do well in a slalom, since their inherent understeer makes them so forgiving.
A RWD will often be happier on a real road.
I know what I like in a car's behavior, I just don't know how to define it clearly.

 

[Shannow]

During my formative years, the Govt of the day insisted on building roundabouts everywhere.

In that environment, I'd say that a car with greater ultimate cornering power was an advantage, as many cars I've driven feel like they are on tip-toes in that city.

That being said, the old R16 did a great job.

Maybe "predictable" rather than ultimate IS the right mix.

 

[Barkleymut]

my mustang has fairly impressive skidpad #'s but getting onto a highway ramp under moderate acceleration requires both hands on the wheel since the back end likes jump all over. Therefore I would say they are nothing but #'s on paper as some of my older cars didn't have the same skidpad #'s but felt much more manageable.

 

[Pete591]

If you want to barrel around turns...pull up a .75 to a .85?

Get these (but you can spend a set on a weekend at the track).

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?...l=Accord%20Seda

 

[01rangerxl]

I think for 99.9% of drivers in most on-road driving situations, it doesn't matter that much. The road leading to my neighborhood has some nice twisties and we'll just say that I ignore the speed limit for the most part. The Ranger, with no weight in the rear and AT tires, starts breaking loose between 45-50 MPH in this one turn. In the same turn, an E46 3-series starts behaving almost as badly at 50-55 MPH...though the particular car I have driven though there could really use a set of new tires. That would matter on a track, but on a public road not so much.

 

[Pete591]

2010 Accord V-6
Traction Control and Stability management (cheating).
360 degree and banked ramp.. speed before tires squeal...just under 70. Could take it at any day at 75.

Have done this bank with a Cayman at 95 without batting an eye.

Mostly because the Michelin Pilots on the Accord are not true summer tires. The Porsche' Cayman had Pirelli Rosso summer tires and a mid engine matters more than you think. It's a dream to handle.

FYI...a Corvette Z0-6 on the same bank is a widow maker. Thank goodness it has a ton of under steer. The rear end just gets away from you every time. The front end is too heavy...a true lead sled. A 0-100 drag car.

I tried a Mustang GT last year through the same curve...it was a Rousch tuned chassis and had a blower on the engine. Neighbor works at Ford..brings home all sorts of cars..I have gone to the track too. Dared not go over 70.

Try a BMW M-3 sometime. A very balanced car that dances through turns. 80 is easy.

A 355 Ferrari has to be manhandled...

Ultimate will be the 2011 Porsche' Turbo Carrera S with 500 HP.
I have driven many Carrera's. I would take a Carrera with 300 HP over a Shelby Cobra/Z06 any day of the week. Just more fun and handles "PRECISELY". 95 is attainable "it would seem". ;

 

[Captain_Klink]

i would also say AWD in a Subaru is excellent, i have driven northern ontario snow/ice covered roads, and with RWD Crown Victoria it is a white knuckle affair, whereas Subaru impreza drives like it's on bare pavement - absolutely awe inspiring.
as far as driving through some orange cones, maybe the C V can do it, but there is a LOT more to staying on the road. i would say 95% of going off the road has to do with slippery conditions, and my experience with the Subaru, with low centre of gravity, symmetrical AWD, probably the engineer puts his heart and soul into it, i don't know, but we all love our Subaru here, because it ALWAYS goes where it's supposed to. (my apologies to anyone who has had a fatal crash in one, no disrespect intended, and may your relative rest in piece, but i doubt the accident could have been prevented by the Subaru engineer).

 

[brianl703]

I think it matters more in, say, Virginia than it does in Michigan or Indiana.

As to why, look at a map. Observe that the roads in Michigan or Indiana are much straighter than the ones in Virginia.

 

[Steve S]

If you [can] use the max #.

 

[fdcg27]

That's interesting, since the Corvette is consistently very fast on a track, and I'm talking about a road course, not a drag strip, usually posting FTD in track tests with other production sports cars.
Writers have remarked on the Corvette's tail-happiness, however.
Maybe more a matter of personal adjustment than a flaw in the car.

 

[fdcg27]

Agree on the Subie.
In bad conditions, our Subaru is awesome.
The other 95% of the time, its just tall, heavy, slow and thirsty.
The Subie is a very pleasant car to drive, although not fast.
It is a comfortable and quiet highway cruiser.
The only thing is that you pay for the AWD every mile you drive, although it is there when you need it.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
That's personal bias, since the Corvette is consistently very fast on a track, and I'm talking about a road course, not a drag strip, usually posting FTD in track tests with other production sports cars.


Correction in italics.

Instant, massive torque is NOT easy to modulate, when one is NOT used to dealing with such.

Also, as some on this thread have already stated, the actual tire grip/compound must be equalized in order to make fair comparisons.

 

[tonycarguy]

Control and predictability are more important for the average driver, who doesn't know how to handle a car at the limit. Every car will lose traction at some point (eg, in an emergency), but some cars are easier to control when it happens.

Skidpad numbers relate to traction, which is an important safety feature. Braking power is directly proportional to tire traction.

 

[fdcg27]

The problem with your view is that the limit changes based upon weather conditions.
It is no secret that a lack of tread improves dry road grip, for both cornering and braking.
It is also no secret that a compound that works well in warm weather may not be quite so desirable when it gets cold.
Therefore, I would postulate that predictability matters above all.
The limit in the rain is not the same as it is in dry conditions, and the limit in snow and ice will vary by the moment.
Predictable handling keeps all drivers out of trouble under less than perfect conditions, not just the average ones.
I do think that it is up to the driver to explore his car's limits, so that he knows what's available, and so that he knows what to expect when he needs to take evasive action.
I also think that long ownership yields a better interface of man and machine.
After many miles, you know exactly what the old girl will do.

 

[Bamaro]

I guess it matters to someone who enters a curve a little too fast.