Are mainstream cars geared too tall?

[ls1mike]

Holy Cow! 3,500 RPM in 6th? How fast are you going.
The Trans Am see 1900 going 70 MPH with 3.42 and with the 4.10s right around 2300 ish.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi

The M40/42 4 cylinders are nice engines, old school design. I remember driving one a years back, it was nice, revvy. Seemed like it would take boost very well.


Old school? The M42 was pretty darn advanced back in it's time (1990) with a distributorless ignition, no EGR, etc.

It is a fun engine, but at least for the E30, I dont think there are any turbo/supercharger kits. maybe in the E36 form there are.

Great little engine.

 

[ItsuMitsubishi]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi

The M40/42 4 cylinders are nice engines, old school design. I remember driving one a years back, it was nice, revvy. Seemed like it would take boost very well.


Old school? The M42 was pretty darn advanced back in it's time (1990) with a distributorless ignition, no EGR, etc.

It is a fun engine, but at least for the E30, I dont think there are any turbo/supercharger kits. maybe in the E36 form there are.

Great little engine.


I agree! I mean it's old school in the "good engine building techniques" aspect. Where it's operating character was important, instead of today's priorities of cost cutting, narrow valve angles and economy tuning. I miss the way engines were built.

 

[rslifkin]

I can't stand DBW. In both the 05 Toyota Camry V6 and 05 Lexus RX330 I've driven, the engine lags, even from a dead stop. The Camry is definitely worse than the RX though. In the Camry, if you punch it on the highway, it's a half second before it downshifts, and another half second before you actually get engine response. Drives me crazy.

Pretty much any non-DBW car I've driven, no matter how underpowered, if you punch it on the highway, the downshift is done by the time you're finished getting the pedal to the floor, and the response is pretty much instant from there.

 

[JHZR2]

a camry is an appliance, there is no need for instantaneous throttle, just consistent operation.

 

[Vizzy]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
a camry is an appliance, there is no need for instantaneous throttle, just consistent operation.



Brutally true and accurate.

God how I loathe such cars....It is possible to make a practical car that is somewhat entertaining to drive AND is reliable...like the VW Golf for example...and the price is about the same too....

 

[HTSS_TR]

My Honda S2000 at 65 MPH on 6th is turning 3500 RPM. It has fairly low gear ratio, 18.5 MPH per 1000 RPM on 6th.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
a camry is an appliance, there is no need for instantaneous throttle, just consistent operation.



Brutally true and accurate.

God how I loathe such cars....It is possible to make a practical car that is somewhat entertaining to drive AND is reliable...like the VW Golf for example...and the price is about the same too....


We love the wife's 08 rabbit, but will not confuse it for a highway cruiser...

I dont recall the gear ratios or RPM in top gear at 70 MPH. What I do know is that in a 100% CITY use scenario, we will average about 26-26.5 MPG, which is good considering the EPA rating. On the highway, even if lightly loaded and going relatively slow, we will only get 30-31 MPG (EPA rating is 29). It is a great peppy city car, and will do fine on the highway, just wish it did a bit better in the MPG department on the highway...

 

[Vikas]

Originally Posted By: CBR.worm

My G35 has a 6 speed stick and in 6th gear on the highway I am at 3,500 rpm or higher for hours a day.


This is insane or your definition of the highway speed is 85mph+
I have Maxima 3.0 5spd and it is not tall enough i.e. I never need to downshift. I think I cruise around 3100 or so.

- Vikas

 

[tonycarguy]

No they're not geared too tall. They're geared in a way that the tranny can deal with all potential scenarios:

1. For quiet cruising or fuel economy, use the highest gear
2. For passing power or climbing hills or towing, use a gear or two below highest gear.

If you geared top gear shorter, then there is no possible way to solve #1.

 

[subiedriver]

My '04 Subaru Legacy 5 speed spins 3000 rpm at 70 mph in 5th gear. The car still gets 32 mpg, its great for mountain driving, keeps the rpms up. 60 mph in 4th gear is about 3500 rpm. This car is geared really short and the ratio's are close, I like it.

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
a camry is an appliance, there is no need for instantaneous throttle, just consistent operation.



Brutally true and accurate.

God how I loathe such cars....It is possible to make a practical car that is somewhat entertaining to drive AND is reliable...like the VW Golf for example...and the price is about the same too....


It's a matter of taste I guess. I prefer to drive an appliance myself. Tall gearing makes for a quieter, more durable, and more economical vehicle. Yeah, it can make a car feel sluggish, but that's really of very little concern to me. As long as a car can move with the flow of traffic and pass safely... I just don't care a whole lot.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm with Onion on the tall gearing. Tall gearing and plenty of low-end torque is good. It lets you keep the rpms down for less noise, and still get pretty good gas mileage, without having to downshift constantly.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: subiedriver
My '04 Subaru Legacy 5 speed spins 3000 rpm at 70 mph in 5th gear. The car still gets 32 mpg, its great for mountain driving, keeps the rpms up. 60 mph in 4th gear is about 3500 rpm. This car is geared really short and the ratio's are close, I like it.

My 95 Mercedes E320 is geared the same way. In top gear doing 70 mph I'm at 3000 rpm. That's great for giving the driver the impression that it's a peppy car, but I think it could be geared better for economy. I too agree with onion.

 

[Palut]

I'll take tall gearing. I'd much rather downshift myself at the time of my choosing than drive around effectively downshifted all the time. After all, I bought a manual because I prefer to shift on my own!

I only have two gripes about my Mazda 6, one of which is short 5th gear. It's got a 3.0 V-6 and a 5-speed manual but is geared shorter than my 4 cylinder Accord was. Its only rated 26 on the highway, and I bet if it had an extra, taller 6th gear, say 30 mph / 1000 rpm, it could really improve the highway mileage.

 

[Papa Bear]

I would like to have a tall ratio and have the transmission's high gear be 1:1

 

[fdcg27]

Interesting that you post that.
I recently had a discussion with a friend regarding another friend's purchase of a stick Altima coupe.
I said that it was an appliance, while a Maxima is just a faster appliance.
The Accords are at least the most entertaining appliances, although the BMW is far more entertaining to drive than any mainstream mid-size.

 

[eljefino]

I agree with proper torquey cam and tall gearing. My silhouette van (4 speed) pulls 2k RPM at 70 MPH, and will pull a moderate hill without downshifting. When it does, it's smart enough, especially with cruise engaged, to drop to 3rd and relock the TCC. And it delivers 27 MPG highway which seems to match the real world experiences of 4 cyl VUE owners, a trade I'm considering.

The decent torque band and wider ratios preclude the need for more than 4 speeds. IMO automakers are shooting themselves in the feet for moving away from this simplicity.

 

[antonmnster]

Low highway rpms are also more common because of variable valve timing and variable-length induction routing. Engines can make more torque down low so they don't have to downshift as much, at least that how the theory goes.

My bigggest regret about going from an e36 to e46 BMW was buying one with an autotragic.

Worst. Decision. Ever.

I can't stand how busy it is. I can drive in a straight line and gain 6" in elevation: the trans computer will shift and/or lock and unlock the tc 4 or 5 times. Any change in elevation or throttle input prompts a shift or tc unlock.

On the highway I can make the tc unlock just by thinking about it. It's constantly locking and unlocking and it RUINS the driving experience.

Anyone selling all the parts for a 5-speed swap? Seriously.

 

[levi]

Originally Posted By: eljefino

The decent torque band and wider ratios preclude the need for more than 4 speeds. IMO automakers are shooting themselves in the feet for moving away from this simplicity.


Well said.

Its not just about CAFE to the auto makers, IMO.

Complexity breeds downstream maintenance revenue.

Lots of it.