Does anyone mix their own antioxidant?

[FowVay]

Since many here post UOA's that show high oxidation levels, especially with the S2000 Amsoil, have any of you taken it upon yourselves to add your own anti-oxidant? From speaking with many oil companies I have determined that the amount of anti-oxidant that is added to oils is very small, normally in the .2% range. This may be due to either cost or EPA regulation.

My question is why aren't we adding our own anti-oxidant? We add our own anti-wear additives with the Valvoline and Schaeffer's Moly EP.

I'm going to buy a jug of Ciba Irganox L57 and play around a bit with it and see what happens to my oxidation numbers on a few analysis samples that I have. For $.40 per ounce it's much less expensive than other OTC/mail order additives plus it is the exact product that is blended in the oil of many big name companies to begin with.

Anyone else tinker around and have stories to tell?

 

[BlueWorld]

Well, LC20 is an anti-oxident. so I'm betting plenty of people here do.

 

[LCD]

As BlueWorld said LC20 is an antioxidant and a very good one at that as that's its main job.

And it is less than $0.40/ounce with shipping. If Shipping for 1 gallon is about $8 (not exactly sure to your location) you are looking at less than $0.33/ounce.

 

[FowVay]

What exactly is in the LC20? Do we have back to back UOA's showing the effectiveness?

I may give the LC20 a try also. It's one more ingredient in this big pie.

 

[bruce381]

Irganox L-57 is synergistic with other AO's but try at .5-1.0% for a big boost will also raise TBN about .4-.5 numbers at 1%
bruce

 

[FowVay]

Bruce, I got some data from a domestic oil company with some incredible results with the Ciba product. This is what got me interested in it. I found a supplier of small quantities and I'm going to start doing some samples.

I realize that all of this has already been done by the big oil companies but it's still fun to play around.

Ciba sent me some data from Switzerland with regards to the L57 and it showed results with mix rates up to 2% so I don't believe it will hurt anything. I do appreciate their open attitude and not once have they told me that the information is "proprietary" or other evasive wording about the make-up or formulation.

This is fun!

 

[mechtech]

I've been considering making a sour apple Martini.

 

[FowVay]

that would be nice,, especially after a long day of work. But does that give you a acid stomach??

 

[darkdan]

I usually throw in 400 IU of Vitamin E once a week. =)

 

[MolaKule]

There are approx. 2 dozen or more AO's for everything from PCMO's to gear lubes to hydrualic fluids.

Go down to "Question of the Day" and see:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000023

or

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000032

One of the things you need to know, through testing, is how much of the AO is needed and how it well plays with the rest of the additive package.

 

[FowVay]

Molakule, this is the reason I chose this specific one to start with. It is used by many oil companies (don't ask) in its raw form. I'm simply playing with treat levels to see what happens.

I'd like to know more about the LC 20. I think it will likely serve the same purpose but with a different approach.

 

[Mickey_M]

FowVay

quote:

---

....
My question is why aren't we adding our own anti-oxidant? We add our own anti-wear additives with the Valvoline and Schaeffer's Moly EP. ....

---

Try these:

- 1 quart of Mobil 1 Extended Performance in the viscosity of your choice

- LUBEGARD Bio Tech Engine Protectant

- Valvoline SynPower Oil Treatment - a nice dose of zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) if you use it sparingly


.

 

[bruce381]

L-57 is a Aminic AO try a 50/50 mix with a Phenolic such as L-115? forgot name anyway will give a BIG boost is AO performance.
bruce

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

UOA's that show high oxidation levels, especially with the S2000 Amsoil, have any of you taken it upon yourselves to add your own anti-oxidant?

---

If the oil analysis lab doesn't calibrate and consider the oxidation reading from the virgin synthetic's ester components, then it may well show high oxidation levels. That doesn't mean, however, the oil is low in AO additives.

Most good AO's are aminic and/or phenol-based.

 

[FowVay]

Mola, in a particular situation I see higher than normal iron wear with very little wear from other metals. TBN retention is excellent yet oxidation and nitration don't look impressive. The oil thickens out of grade in short order. I figure that there are some oxidation particles that aren't enough to spoil my TBN yet when acted upon by my higher-than-normal sump temperatures (260ºF) and hot spots I am likely seeing a bit of corrosion wear. The IR trace is showing the ketones, aldehydes, alcohols and carbon acids (acetic acid) which is what I'm tinkering with.

My tinkering will be with a small selection of antioxidants (my money doesn't afford too many tests) and also with oil viscosity to see what changes. I have noticed that with certain viscosity grades of PAO oils there are unpredictable wear patterns. It's my guess that this is due to the base fluid. 0W-40's normally formulated with low vis PAO-4 oils show more wear than 5w-40's formulated with PAO-6 oils while using the exact same add package. I think the volatility of the PAO4 vs. PAO6 is the culprit in this scene. But again, oxidation may be playing the devil's advocate and messing up the numbers.

If you guys have any research you'd like to share it would be interesting to read about it.

It's all in good fun.. until someone loses an eye.

 

[bruce381]

its always better as far a wear rates to use the highest vis grade you can with in temp and vis ranges you will see. i perfer to use a high vis base oil with the minimun amount of VII since IMHO the wear surface will not "see" the VII improved vis only the "base" vis.
bruce

 

[MolaKule]

Intersting. My experience recently (last year)with Amsoil 5W40 euro in the PathFinder and 5W30 ASL in the Frontier is that these oils don't thicken up with oxidation, but they actually shear and show volatility (oil loss), albeit with low wear results. I never used S2000 so I don't have any experience with it. So I don't know if it's their selection of base oils, addditive packs, or both. Again my experience is with Nissan vehicles, and each engine/oil combo reacts differently.

This was not the case with GC 0W30, nor with my own proprietary PCMO oils running in either vehicle as comparison oils.

With my old Suburbans, the Amsoils used in the 350's never showed shearing or oxidation thickening and I used the 10W30 ATM which showed only moderate levels of wear particles.

I agree with Bruce and in my own case, I always start with the highest viscosity base oils, and then use the lower viscosity oils for viscosity targets. This results in a high VI without the use of VII's, and also insures good low temperature operation, and low shear; albeit it costs more since the higher vis oils are way more expensive than the 4-10 cSt oils.

I should also mention that AO's of Tolutriazoles in ester, alkylated diphenylamines, dionyl diphenylamines, octylated dipehnylamines, organic/esterified esters, and the methylated bis-dibutyDDT's also offer good antioxidation capabilities in the right base oil.

But I think the bottom line is, if there is another yet unidentified factor, simply increasing the aminic or any other AO may not solve the problem.

[ November 17, 2005, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[FowVay]

Thanks for the input Bruce and Molakule, I also agree with the viscosity comment. It only seems logical that this would be the first step to reducing wear numbers by increasing the barrier film.

I'll likely post again when I get some hard data worth mentioning.

Thanks again!!

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

---

its always better as far a wear rates to use the highest vis grade you can with in temp and vis ranges you will see. i perfer to use a high vis base oil with the minimun amount of VII since IMHO the wear surface will not "see" the VII improved vis only the "base" vis.
bruce

---

Deep down I have always felt the same. That is why my oil room (191 quarts) has no 5w or 0w oil. It's all 10w30 and up. In fact, I once put a quart of SAE 40 in with my 10w40 just to beef up the base oil.

And of course Redline's 5w20 has higher HTHS than most 10w30s presumably because Redlines 5w20 has no VIIs and is thicker than the base oil in most 10w30s. So it seems HTHS is a very important parameter among oil specifications. And when HTHS is unknown, one has to fall back on the old "thicker is better" criteria.

So basically (as I understand it), the VIIs get squeezed in the bearings, and the VIIS in "Energy Conserving" (EC) oils actually are made to promote this effect to achieve the EC rating.

 

[bruce381]

NO matter how stable and oil is it still gets full of wear metal, water, fuel, sludge and gunk and the best answer is routine OCI that is more important than any additive system or base oil.
bruce