Does a tiny rip matter?

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
Originally Posted By: TomHunter
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Fluid will take the least path of resistance.

Please do not overrun this thread with idle speculations.


As the first poster who tried to respectfully disagree using the same logic as Zee, I take offense to your response.

Its basic physics and fluid dynamics, and it is you who are the one trolling these forums with inflammatory chatter and speculations.


It's our buddy WD, re-registered under a different username. It's so obvious ... figured he couldn't stay away.

 

[TriboGeek]

Originally Posted By: TomHunter
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Fluid will take the least path of resistance.

Please do not overrun this thread with idle speculations.







Simple fact cited as idle speculation.

Need we hear more?

 

[Sam2000]

Does a tiny rip matter?

Yes. I don't know the filtering efficiency that I paid for nor am I as certain that my engine is protected from wear causing particles.

To quote Purolator "Failure is not an Option".

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
If you're running a Purolator Classic (as I have) in an engine with piston cooling nozzles-even tiny bits of media could clog one. Bye-bye $6-8,000 Cummins motor!


That's why FRAM redesigned the PH3976A well over a decade ago.

Cummins analyzed the failures and FRAM came up with an explanation, of sorts.

You can read it here...

http://www.fram.com/media/20656/PH3976-Bulletin-3Cummins_59L_Engine.pdf

You can pay me now or you can pay me later....or both.

My 6.7 liter Cummins only gets Fleetguard Stratapore oil filters.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: TriboGeek
Originally Posted By: TomHunter
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Fluid will take the least path of resistance.

Please do not overrun this thread with idle speculations.



Simple fact cited as idle speculation.

Need we hear more?



I do remember my fluids class.

Filter media is very permeable and the problem may be an application of Darcy's Law.

So while some oil hits the tear unfiltered, the remainder of the flow pushs through the media with no problems and is fully filtered.

It is intuitive that with subsequent passes through the filter, all the oil quickly gets filtered.

I believe you could model it statistically.

You would just need to assign a probability for the same oil returning to the tear.

 

[123Saab]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6


I do remember my fluids class.

Filter media is very permeable and the problem may be an application of Darcy's Law.

So while some oil hits the tear unfiltered, the remainder of the flow pushs through the media with no problems and is fully filtered.

It is intuitive that with subsequent passes through the filter, all the oil quickly gets filtered.

I believe you could model it statistically.

You would just need to assign a probability for the same oil returning to the tear.


I'd have to agree with this.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The area of the tears will flow more oil volume than that same area in the media. That's because there is basically zero resistance from an unimpeded hole as compared to filter media resistance, even if the media doesn't have much resistance. So relatively, the open hole will flow more volume because fluids always want to flow through the path of least resistance more than a path of more resistance. Are you reading this WD?

Even if the majority of the oil still was filtered, having large tears still makes it possible that some debris could go through those tears and into the oiling system. Plus the frayed fibers on the edges of the tears could get swept off and flow in to the oiling system. It's the possibility of those things happening that I'd rather not take a chance on - even if others think the possibility is low. I want a filter to do 100% of what it was designed to do. Failure is not an option.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: TomHunter
Of course Purolator ought to look into this and fix whatever is going on, but I would not get hysterical.

As I mentioned in another thread, the big attraction of the P1 and Bosch Premium is efficiency. Torn media doesn't mean the sky is falling. However the 99.9% or 99% efficiency rating is falling.

No, the media didn't collapse and starve the engine. It didn't unleash 15 g of debris all at once. However, the efficiency isn't what's advertised.

Don't claim to be one of the most efficient filters out there if you can't keep the media intact.

 

[Sam2000]

So Toyota made a filter with 50% efficiency when there were no tears and folks are guessing that you can better that with a tear?

The only way to find out is to do an actual test using the same test that outputs 99.9% efficiency on a non torn filter.

Apart from that, who believes that the tear size is small enough to stop a catastrophic size particle from reaching the engine?

 

[Cristobal]

The lone PureOne in my stash will be eventually used, based on these responses. But I will buy no more Purolator filters until that company addresses, and solves, this issue. I think the chances of a given filter by them failing in a catastrophic manner is low, but possible. At any rate, the filter will be demoted down to the same spot as the STP E-Core I also have. I have many filters to use before the PureOne's number comes up.

My PureOne was made in April 2011. Does that about correlate to when these tears started showing up?

 

[AHC]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Tom, there is no science in your post. You can't simply measure the area of the hole, divide it by the area of the filter and then decide based on the low percentage that it's irrelevant. It ignores that the oil will follow the path of least resistance. The proportion of the area of the hole is not the same as the proportion of oil that will go through that hole. You have not quantified that, at least in your post here.

To say this is a non issue based on the information you've provided thus far is as irresponsible as making filters with holes in the media and selling them at full price knowing most consumers will never know.





Thank you. God almighty thank you!

It appears many participants on this board NEVER learned about the scientific method. Not even in high school. Some of these comments, postulations and theories are utterly embarrassing and hard to read.

Please think before you post and if something is out of your wheelhouse, ask questions. Does this theory seem reasonable? Maybe preface with I'm not an expert but I'd appreciate anyone who could help me understand....X.

 

[AHC]

Thank you. God almighty thank you!

It appears many participants on this board NEVER learned about the scientific method. Not even in high school. Some of these comments, postulations and theories are utterly embarrassing and hard to read.

Please think before you post and if something is out of your wheelhouse, ask questions. Does this theory seem reasonable? Maybe preface with I'm not an expert but I'd appreciate anyone who could help me understand....X. [

Actually, that was too harsh and I apologize. Im my profession, I rely heavily on experts. I have to or people can get hurt. And it's really Ok to not know about something. Heck, you're likely great at what you do. Whatever that is. I appreciate learning from mechanics, teachers, lawyers, checkers, janitors and doctors.

Anyway, I'm sorry. I was grouchy.

 

[SilverC6]

So are we not talking Darcy's Law with an area and assignable permeability for the media and an open area representing the tear area?

You solve the partial differential equations to determine both the flow through the media and the flow through the tear.

The flow is going to favor the tear.

But at the same time, flow through the relatively large and highly permeable media is going to be significant too.

This is going to be driven by the small flow area offered by the tear in comparison with the significantly higher overall flow passing through the filter.

 

[UNC151]

Originally Posted By: TomHunter
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
I am not being sarcastic, but that comparison does not seem realistic, not to mention the "basket" holding the filter played a significant role in how many grounds made it into your coffee cup.

Just as the center post plays a significant role in the oil filter. I provided an analogy, I did not say an oil filter is a coffee filter.

My experiential knowledge is that you need a pretty large hole in high flow filter media to make a significant difference in actual use. I also see no signs in the pictures of the kind of erosion around the faults in the media I would expect to see if significant bypass were taking place at those points.

The question was "Does a tiny rip matter that much?" and the answer is "No". The rest of the discussion is fascinating to those who think it is fascinating, but I am not talking to that and them.

I am not saying that you said a coffee filter is the same as an oil filter, but the comparison is invalid. There is no pressure in the basket of a coffee maker. But all of that notwithstanding, why would anyone want to pay the same or more for a Purolator knowing there seems to be an issue with media that may potentially tear when there are other brands not experiencing the problem? Short answer, yes small tears matter because no one is going to willingly pay for a filter that can pass unfiltered oil due to a flaw. I know that I would not and Purolator needs to address the issue instead of simply saying "just keep buying our filters and the problem will disappear because we are constantly improving".

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I disagree with WD, but know that There is not much delta P in a engine oil filter in steady state - car oiling is NOT an open system (on the filter exit side) there exist a large impedance post media once pressure is normalized. You can use electrical equivalent circuit modeling -(as I have done in Helmholtz resonator speaker cabinet design in the '80s.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I put a big hole in my coffee filter this morning and really enjoyed straining coffee grounds through my teeth. I think I'm going to put some holes in my car's air filter this afternoon because I've come to realize that having holes in every kind of filter is awesome !!

 

[NJC]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I disagree with WD, but know that There is not much delta P in a engine oil filter in steady state - car oiling is NOT an open system (on the filter exit side) there exist a large impedance post media once pressure is normalized.

Thanks for adding this ... not something I realized. Even with a minor dP I'd still be concerned that oil would be bypassing through the tear.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Of course oil is always bypassing the filter through holes in the media. Even if it's a small amount it's still happening and there is potential for something to go down into the oiling system, and also possible that media fibers on the torn edges are swept down into the oiling system from oil flow past the tear.

People (or should I say one troll we all now know) who argue it's just fine for unfiltered oil to go past the filter apparently don't care if they have an oil filter on their engine or not.

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: JTK
A hole in the media would cause the bypass to open less on the filter (or pump).

We probably get more bypassing going on than we think.



Jim Allen has a nice thread somewhere and in his extensive testing it proved by pass events aren't as often as we think! Maybe someone has it bookmarked?

I saw a used oil analysis with low insolubles with a ripped P1, so the filter was apparently doing its job and multi pass efficiency took up the slack of the hole in the media, but I'm still only using Wix, TG, and XGs from now on.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Nobody can convince me of paying any amount for a defective oil filter with teared media after some use, I refuse to use it even if it's free.

My Lexus FCI is 1 year up to 16-18k miles, various name brand filters includes P1 PL20195 was used. Now, I will not use Purolator oil filter in any car I own, at least until they fix the problem.