Here's another filter with instructions in a logical order, with a less-ambiguous "check for leaks" symbol. https://www.densoproducts.com/product.aspx?zpid=41187
Do You "Prime" Your Oil Filters Before Installing Them ?
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Originally Posted by atikovi
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
I used to on filters that would allow it until Jim Allen and I collaborated on some particle testing some years ago and discovered that virgin oil is not as clean as one might think. In essence, by filling the filter, one is potentially allowing oil into the engine that may have contaminates which could be large enough to cause a wear streak in a bearing or the like.
Who is Jim Allen and what is "virgin oil"? And how do you introduce contaminants when you fill the filter with new oil any more than when you add the oil through the fill opening?
The definition of virgin oil is "new out of the bottle" and you have been here long enough to know that and to know who Jim Allen is (google it, if you really do not). To what side of the filter does the oil from the fill opening go versus you pouring into the center hole? I am fairly certain that it goes to the filter inlet side and not the outlet as would be by pouring it in.
For the skeptical, unless you have ran particle tests on "new oil in the bottle", you cannot say there are "no contaminants or none big enough to scratch a bearing", because that would be bovine scatology. Jim tested 4 different samples and two of them had a few very large particles (which would have been caught by the filter in the first pass), but not if you pour it directly into the outlet side of the filter which is what is being discussed here.
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
I used to on filters that would allow it until Jim Allen and I collaborated on some particle testing some years ago and discovered that virgin oil is not as clean as one might think. In essence, by filling the filter, one is potentially allowing oil into the engine that may have contaminates which could be large enough to cause a wear streak in a bearing or the like.
Who is Jim Allen and what is "virgin oil"? And how do you introduce contaminants when you fill the filter with new oil any more than when you add the oil through the fill opening?
The definition of virgin oil is "new out of the bottle" and you have been here long enough to know that and to know who Jim Allen is (google it, if you really do not). To what side of the filter does the oil from the fill opening go versus you pouring into the center hole? I am fairly certain that it goes to the filter inlet side and not the outlet as would be by pouring it in.
For the skeptical, unless you have ran particle tests on "new oil in the bottle", you cannot say there are "no contaminants or none big enough to scratch a bearing", because that would be bovine scatology. Jim tested 4 different samples and two of them had a few very large particles (which would have been caught by the filter in the first pass), but not if you pour it directly into the outlet side of the filter which is what is being discussed here.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
62 posts about this in less than a day ...
And if I had posted this topic, somebody would call it the useless thread of the day.
62 posts about this in less than a day ...
And if I had posted this topic, somebody would call it the useless thread of the day.
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
The definition of virgin oil is "new out of the bottle"
That's primarily a term used for olive oil. I've never heard anybody at Autozone ask for a bottle of "virgin" oil. Just call it what it is, new oil.
The definition of virgin oil is "new out of the bottle"
That's primarily a term used for olive oil. I've never heard anybody at Autozone ask for a bottle of "virgin" oil. Just call it what it is, new oil.
This goes back to when The Critic was still in diapers @ BITOG, LOL.
REGARDING PARTICLES IN NEW OIL AND FILTER PREFILLINGS - The late Stinky Peterson (RIP)* was a member here and managed a CAT oil analysis lab in North Dakota. Here is a thread he started about contaminants in new oil - mostly HDEO oriented, not PCMO.. Unfortunately, the shocking pictures no longer show up. Maybe things have changed since 2005 and new oil is cleaner????? Linky: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111810
Stinky quotes:
" I have not found one brand to be dirtier than another, it seems to be a universal problem. For this reason I do not recommend prefilling filters since anything dumped into to core of the filter gets a free ride to the engine bearings."
"Yes I would definitely reconsider pre-filling filters, unless you can do it with filtered oil. Dumping the oil into the filter lets it get right into the engines. The small delay caused by an empty filter is insignificant compared to the damage cause by these contaminants. We don't pre-fill the filter on our big engines and they hold several gallons."
"Most of these particles are a lot bigger than 10 microns and are easily filtered. To get maximum life it helps to get the small ones out too. I myself don't want this garbage in my oil but unless someone pre-fills the filter then the big chunks will be caught the first time. By pre-filling you are actually bypassing the filter and putting the junk right into the engine."
"No doubt there are some organic materials present but many of these are quartz-like crystals that are clearly dust/dirt. Also there are some metal flakes, "
I'm just sharing to show that we discussed the same topic 14 years ago. His thread concentrated on HDEO oils of the day. Maybe processing is better today?
*Stinky Peterson, aka Mark Mathys, died when a freak trailer mishap ended up pinning and killing him. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=588484
REGARDING PARTICLES IN NEW OIL AND FILTER PREFILLINGS - The late Stinky Peterson (RIP)* was a member here and managed a CAT oil analysis lab in North Dakota. Here is a thread he started about contaminants in new oil - mostly HDEO oriented, not PCMO.. Unfortunately, the shocking pictures no longer show up. Maybe things have changed since 2005 and new oil is cleaner????? Linky: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111810
Stinky quotes:
" I have not found one brand to be dirtier than another, it seems to be a universal problem. For this reason I do not recommend prefilling filters since anything dumped into to core of the filter gets a free ride to the engine bearings."
"Yes I would definitely reconsider pre-filling filters, unless you can do it with filtered oil. Dumping the oil into the filter lets it get right into the engines. The small delay caused by an empty filter is insignificant compared to the damage cause by these contaminants. We don't pre-fill the filter on our big engines and they hold several gallons."
"Most of these particles are a lot bigger than 10 microns and are easily filtered. To get maximum life it helps to get the small ones out too. I myself don't want this garbage in my oil but unless someone pre-fills the filter then the big chunks will be caught the first time. By pre-filling you are actually bypassing the filter and putting the junk right into the engine."
"No doubt there are some organic materials present but many of these are quartz-like crystals that are clearly dust/dirt. Also there are some metal flakes, "
I'm just sharing to show that we discussed the same topic 14 years ago. His thread concentrated on HDEO oils of the day. Maybe processing is better today?
*Stinky Peterson, aka Mark Mathys, died when a freak trailer mishap ended up pinning and killing him. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=588484
I always have. As a kid I read about it in some car mag, maybe Hotrod and since then I have done it. It was a bit of a pain in some of the old Mopar small blocks but overall, not hard. I found that using a funnel and filling slowly to about 3/4 was the trick. No air burps sending oil all over the place.
Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. Don't care as it is easy to do.
Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. Don't care as it is easy to do.
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Originally Posted by atikovi
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
The definition of virgin oil is "new out of the bottle"
That's primarily a term used for olive oil. I've never heard anybody at Autozone ask for a bottle of "virgin" oil. Just call it what it is, new oil.
Really? What does the"V" in VOA stand for as opposed to the"U" in UOA?
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
The definition of virgin oil is "new out of the bottle"
That's primarily a term used for olive oil. I've never heard anybody at Autozone ask for a bottle of "virgin" oil. Just call it what it is, new oil.
Really? What does the"V" in VOA stand for as opposed to the"U" in UOA?
A couple of questions that haven't been answered on this perennial topic:
1) Wouldn't the alleged metal chunks and "quartz-like crystals" settle to the bottom of the bottle? (Assuming one is careful not to dump the last of the bottle into the filter?)
2) If pre-filling doesn't affect the life expectancy of the engine, how does it matter whether an ADBV is present and functional? A new dry filter will take even more time for the pump to fill than a used one with a leaky ADBV.
1) Wouldn't the alleged metal chunks and "quartz-like crystals" settle to the bottom of the bottle? (Assuming one is careful not to dump the last of the bottle into the filter?)
2) If pre-filling doesn't affect the life expectancy of the engine, how does it matter whether an ADBV is present and functional? A new dry filter will take even more time for the pump to fill than a used one with a leaky ADBV.
I'm not sure if I'll ever do DIY oil changes on my 2020 Prius Prime but the spin-on oil filter is conveniently vertical with the gasket side up if I want to prefill/prime it.
It's a good point that prefilling could be problematic if the new oil has contaminants.
It's a good point that prefilling could be problematic if the new oil has contaminants.
Has anyone here done a VOA with a particle count from 1 qt or 5 qt plastic bottles?
I skimmed through the Stinky thread and he said the particle count samples were diluted with kerosene. Didn't see where it was said the kerosene was verified to be totally clean. Also, was most of his samples from large metal bulk oil containers? There was someone here who posted PC data from his dealership service department that used bulk oil and it was pretty dirty.
I skimmed through the Stinky thread and he said the particle count samples were diluted with kerosene. Didn't see where it was said the kerosene was verified to be totally clean. Also, was most of his samples from large metal bulk oil containers? There was someone here who posted PC data from his dealership service department that used bulk oil and it was pretty dirty.
I can't see new oil in a small sealed container being " dirty ... " . Oil delivered in bulk, coming out of a who knows if it has ever been flushed and cleaned tanker truck ... maybe.
I can't believe that oil manufacturers don't filter their oil ...
I can't believe that oil manufacturers don't filter their oil ...
Originally Posted by geeman789
I can't see new oil in a small sealed container being " dirty ... ". Oil delivered in bulk, coming out of a who knows if it has ever been flushed and cleaned tanker truck ... maybe.
I can't believe that oil manufacturers don't filter their oil ...
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I mean really, does anyone actually believe new oil in a sealed container has "contamination" in it that can harm your engine bearings...... Unless it has passed through the oil filter first? That's preposterous.
Even the cheap re refined stuff goes through a rigorous filtering process. That's all part of the procedure of how it goes from crap oil, sucked out of a rusty old tank in the back of Auto Zone, into the bottle, and back on the shelf.
Yet we're supposed to believe the high priced, newly refined synthetics are sold full of harmful garbage that can damage your engine, unless the stuff is filtered first? Complete nonsense.
I can't see new oil in a small sealed container being " dirty ... ". Oil delivered in bulk, coming out of a who knows if it has ever been flushed and cleaned tanker truck ... maybe.
I can't believe that oil manufacturers don't filter their oil ...
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I mean really, does anyone actually believe new oil in a sealed container has "contamination" in it that can harm your engine bearings...... Unless it has passed through the oil filter first? That's preposterous.
Even the cheap re refined stuff goes through a rigorous filtering process. That's all part of the procedure of how it goes from crap oil, sucked out of a rusty old tank in the back of Auto Zone, into the bottle, and back on the shelf.
Yet we're supposed to believe the high priced, newly refined synthetics are sold full of harmful garbage that can damage your engine, unless the stuff is filtered first? Complete nonsense.
wemay
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I don't think it makes a difference either way. I just never do it.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Has anyone here done a VOA with a particle count from 1 qt or 5 qt plastic bottles?
I skimmed through the Stinky thread and he said the particle count samples were diluted with kerosene. Didn't see where it was said the kerosene was verified to be totally clean. Also, was most of his samples from large metal bulk oil containers? There was someone here who posted PC data from his dealership service department that used bulk oil and it was pretty dirty.
Excellent points. 'Imo', kerosene added invalidates the results. Not saying it isn't necessarily true, just his test doesn't prove it. By definition not VO. Once he diluted the oil with kero, filtered or otherwise, no longer VO.
VO particles been discussed often before. Won't change my practice of prefill. To each their own.
Taken to the extreme on particles, there's was some "best" practice posted about not changing the filter until some time after the oil change, vehicle driven. I won't be doing that, ever.
Has anyone here done a VOA with a particle count from 1 qt or 5 qt plastic bottles?
I skimmed through the Stinky thread and he said the particle count samples were diluted with kerosene. Didn't see where it was said the kerosene was verified to be totally clean. Also, was most of his samples from large metal bulk oil containers? There was someone here who posted PC data from his dealership service department that used bulk oil and it was pretty dirty.
Excellent points. 'Imo', kerosene added invalidates the results. Not saying it isn't necessarily true, just his test doesn't prove it. By definition not VO. Once he diluted the oil with kero, filtered or otherwise, no longer VO.
VO particles been discussed often before. Won't change my practice of prefill. To each their own.
Taken to the extreme on particles, there's was some "best" practice posted about not changing the filter until some time after the oil change, vehicle driven. I won't be doing that, ever.
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Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by geeman789
I can't see new oil in a small sealed container being " dirty ... ". Oil delivered in bulk, coming out of a who knows if it has ever been flushed and cleaned tanker truck ... maybe.
I can't believe that oil manufacturers don't filter their oil ...
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I mean really, does anyone actually believe new oil in a sealed container has "contamination" in it that can harm your engine bearings...... Unless it has passed through the oil filter first? That's preposterous.
Even the cheap re refined stuff goes through a rigorous filtering process. That's all part of the procedure of how it goes from crap oil, sucked out of a rusty old tank in the back of Auto Zone, into the bottle, and back on the shelf.
Yet we're supposed to believe the high priced, newly refined synthetics are sold full of harmful garbage that can damage your engine, unless the stuff is filtered first? Complete nonsense.
Perform a particle test on new oil and you might just be surprised at what is found in it--I know that I was and I trust Jim Allen's results implicitly. Granted we are not talking about it being "full of harmful garbage", but there are certainly particles contained in some oil samples that are large enough to cause a bearing streak.
The two oils in question were mainstream too--MS5K and Pennzoil Ultra and they both had a few particles that were larger than 100 microns so that means by pre-filling, you are sending those particles to the bearings before it is filtered--if the pre-fill oil contains one of the particles. To each his or her own, but unless one has performed tests and obtained data, one should not be so quick to label something as "nonsense".
Originally Posted by geeman789
I can't see new oil in a small sealed container being " dirty ... ". Oil delivered in bulk, coming out of a who knows if it has ever been flushed and cleaned tanker truck ... maybe.
I can't believe that oil manufacturers don't filter their oil ...
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I mean really, does anyone actually believe new oil in a sealed container has "contamination" in it that can harm your engine bearings...... Unless it has passed through the oil filter first? That's preposterous.
Even the cheap re refined stuff goes through a rigorous filtering process. That's all part of the procedure of how it goes from crap oil, sucked out of a rusty old tank in the back of Auto Zone, into the bottle, and back on the shelf.
Yet we're supposed to believe the high priced, newly refined synthetics are sold full of harmful garbage that can damage your engine, unless the stuff is filtered first? Complete nonsense.
Perform a particle test on new oil and you might just be surprised at what is found in it--I know that I was and I trust Jim Allen's results implicitly. Granted we are not talking about it being "full of harmful garbage", but there are certainly particles contained in some oil samples that are large enough to cause a bearing streak.
The two oils in question were mainstream too--MS5K and Pennzoil Ultra and they both had a few particles that were larger than 100 microns so that means by pre-filling, you are sending those particles to the bearings before it is filtered--if the pre-fill oil contains one of the particles. To each his or her own, but unless one has performed tests and obtained data, one should not be so quick to label something as "nonsense".
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
The two oils in question were mainstream too--MS5K and Pennzoil Ultra and they both had a few particles that were larger than 100 microns so that means by pre-filling, you are sending those particles to the bearings before it is filtered--if the pre-fill oil contains one of the particles. To each his or her own, but unless one has performed tests and obtained data, one should not be so quick to label something as "nonsense".
Always always always fill your oil filter from "Unshaken" oil bottles
The two oils in question were mainstream too--MS5K and Pennzoil Ultra and they both had a few particles that were larger than 100 microns so that means by pre-filling, you are sending those particles to the bearings before it is filtered--if the pre-fill oil contains one of the particles. To each his or her own, but unless one has performed tests and obtained data, one should not be so quick to label something as "nonsense".
Always always always fill your oil filter from "Unshaken" oil bottles
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Originally Posted by Linctex
Always always always fill your oil filter from "Unshaken" oil bottles
Shaken, not stirred?
Always always always fill your oil filter from "Unshaken" oil bottles
Shaken, not stirred?
You have to get the graphite particles that settle on the bottom uniformly distributed throughout the bottle.
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