Do hybrids last as long as naturally aspirated engine and do they make sense?

[IndyIan]

That is impressive that the RAV4 hybrid got that mileage on the same route as the Corolla, I would think the regular RAV4 would get ~20% worse than your Corolla?
Run the numbers for all 3 cars, and a lightly used Prius, as getting 55mpg with the same potential battery costs as the RAV4 puts money in your pocket.
Also I really doubt you'll have to go to an actual toyota dealer to get the battery replaced if that ever happens, the toyota hybrids are so common now that there's probably a shop that specializes in them nearby, or even regular shops now?
Every time I use a taxi, it seems to be a Prius with 200k+ miles on it, and the fellow says they usually get 300k+ miles before a battery goes.
Some years of the Prius were simple enough that an educated DIYer could replace a battery, so that's an option for some.
I think about getting one to replace my Focus wagon, and it seems the good years of them are very reliable.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Your comment confuses me--the OP indicated that they needed to drive to work. Isn't retired. Why would the spending habits of retired people matter here?

Retired people who can drop new car money at a the drop of a hat were likely cheap SOB's during their working years... so as to get into the position where they could drop new car money without pain.

I miss the old :shrug" emocon.

It exists - you have to search "man/woman shrugging"

Excellent post BTW.

 

[zzyzzx]

Still amazes me that with all the retired rich professionals hanging out here, that they can't afford a new/newer car after 8-12 years, just befuddles me. The last thing I want to do is drive a car with 200,000 plus miles on it. IMO YMMV

If you are retired and don't need to get to work, reliability is less of an issue.
If you are retired, you have plenty of time to fix your car.

 

[ATex7239]

We’ve had great luck and ROI with several hybrids both Honda and Toyota. But my wife and I drive quite a bit. The fuel economy gains can outweigh a lot of other factors given you drive it enough.

The batteries will need replacing at some point, sure. However non-hybrids tend to have more transmission issues at high mileage so to me that is kind of a wash on risk. I’ve gotten rid of plenty of high mileage vehicles due to transmission repair cost. Suspension work could also send a vehicle to the junkyard prematurely. I don’t see the batteries being any different in that regard.

As far as the ICE cycling, I have never subscribed to the notion that hybrid ICE’s have an “easier life” than non-hybrids. Especially now with the proliferation of turbos and GDI.

Our hybrid gets 5-6K miles OCI regardless. I’m averaging ~$20 an oil change and do approx six a year. I’m not one to worry too much about running the oil until I get every last drop of life out of it. Order of importance: people > machine > motor oil.

 

[maineiac]

misfire!

 

[maineiac]

Your comment confuses me--the OP indicated that they needed to drive to work. Isn't retired. Why would the spending habits of retired people matter here?

Retired people who can drop new car money at a the drop of a hat were likely cheap SOB's during their working years... so as to get into the position where they could drop new car money without pain.

I miss the old :shrug" emocon.

 

[ecotourist]

The question is "are hybrids the best of both worlds or the worst of both worlds?" You get the maintenance costs of an ICE and the battery worries of an EV.

But then again Toyota seems to know what they're doing.

We have a Tesla. We also have an old Honda Accord that gets decent fuel economy and which I mostly maintain myself. I think that combination really is the best of both worlds.

Flame suit is on.

 

[SC Maintenance]

The question is "are hybrids the best of both worlds or the worst of both worlds?" You get the maintenance costs of an ICE and the battery worries of an EV.

But then again Toyota seems to know what they're doing.

We have a Tesla. We also have an old Honda Accord that gets decent fuel economy and which I mostly maintain myself. I think that combination really is the best of both worlds.

Flame suit is on.

This is my question.

A battery and motor is old tech so not worried. But on this vehicle they had a cabling problem which was lots of money for some. Who on earth would think there could be a cabling issue in 2020 - yet there was. Not that it couldn't happen with an ICE, but 2X systems is 2X more places for issues.

The more systems you add, the more places you have for potential problems, that may be things you don't even consider.

 

[Snagglefoot]

All I have to say is my wife and I really like the 2024 Rav4 XSE AWD hybrid. We purchased it right before Christmas last year and have almost 10,000 miles on it. View attachment 243576

Just curious. What would the incremental price to get into a hybrid in that model. I’m liking the idea.

 

[ATex7239]

The question is "are hybrids the best of both worlds or the worst of both worlds?" You get the maintenance costs of an ICE and the battery worries of an EV.

But then again Toyota seems to know what they're doing.

We have a Tesla. We also have an old Honda Accord that gets decent fuel economy and which I mostly maintain myself. I think that combination really is the best of both worlds.

Flame suit is on.

It just depends on the situation. Fuel cost is the most inconsistent variable IMO. When we moved from a non-hybrid mid sized SUV to a hybrid minivan our weekly fuel costs cut in half. ~ $2500 saved annually. Maintenance costs when down because oil changes, tires, brakes, etc costs are significantly lower… I’m still waiting for the worst part to show up.

 

[joekingcorvette]

Just curious. What would the incremental price to get into a hybrid in that model. I’m liking the idea.

Well resale is very good on this type of vehicle and they are fairly difficult to find on the showroom floors. We ordered ours with leather heated seats and wheel, panaramic sunroof, JBL stereo and navigation. It is pretty much fully loaded with lane assist etc. The vehicle was $45,000.

 

[Steve_Crewdson]

A few considerations:

- The hybrid uses a planetary gear power split device. You will not need to replace the “transmission”. These power split devices essentially never fail.

- The cited battery pack quote was from a dealer. Reconditioned (with excellent warranties) Toyota hybrid batteries are available at a fraction of the dealer’s price. One company will come to your house, install the battery, and give you an excellent warranty for much, much less than a dealer.

- Look deeper into how the hybrid synergy drive system works. The motor/generator spools up the ICE to decent RPMs before ignition (getting oil to flow).

There are many valid reasons why taxi drivers overwhelmingly choose hybrids in many large cities. They last longer than their ICE counterparts (under harsh conditions, BTW), they have lower operational costs, and for many people they are nicer to spend your time in (no harsh gear shifts from a planetary gear power split device).

 

[Sequoiasoon]

Something to add for considerations is location and if the hybrid qualifies for HOV lane use.

I know multiple people that bought hybrid or EV just for that reason. Some of them are saving 25-30 minutes on their commute each way daily. Some of them have the free chargers at their jobs also so opted for the plug in hybrid version. Some can be set to run in just battery mode to utilize that more. That probably has trade offs also for number of deplete/recharge cycles.

A couple years ago my sister was deciding between an ICE CRV and a Hybrid Rav4. She got the Rav4 based on ride, power and some others factors. She loves it.

 

[ecotourist]

For what it's worth Consumer Reports rates the RAV4 Prime (the plug in hybrid) much higher than the RAV4. Better reliability, much better road test, and much higher owner satisfaction.

The RAV4 Prime is their top pick in the category (#1/38) vs (#18/38 for the RAV4).

 

[JeffKeryk]

Toyota makes the best hybrids; they have been at it for a long time. We have one...
Remember, hybrids help more around town than freeway driving.
Remember, you will pay a premium for the hybrid.
The low end pull of the electric motor makes the RAV4 a better driver.

How much is gas where you live? CA buys a lotta hybrids; there's a reason for it.
I bet you would love the hybrid if it is in the budget.

Good luck.

 

[fsdork]

...As for a hybrid making "sense" or not, that would also depend on several things such as usage factors. Inner city stop/go driving and shorter duration drive cycles are where hybrids shine.

In addition to the point made about HOV lanes, this is key, IMO. If you leave your subdivision and hop on a freeway at 70 MPH, then get off near your destination, the upside of a hybrid may be minimal. Stop and go driving is where a hybrid can truly shine.

 

[Danh]

It seems likely replacement hybrid batteries will become less-expensive with time as recycling and other suppliers are more prevalent, and battery failures don’t seem to be a common problem with hybrids so far. Frequent stop/start cycles shouldn’t be too great a concern as most ICE only cars have the same feature.

But at the end of the day from a purely economic point of view an ICE-only choice may be the cheapest and most predictable.

Fwiw, I own a new hybrid CRV. Like the car a lot and believe it’s a better driving experience than the ICE only version. And of course there’s the “virtue signaling” benefit. But after looking under the hood and seeing the complexity (heck, I can’t even identify some of the stuff), I bought a Honda 8/100k full vehicle extended warranty. Actual Honda warranty for about $1k. If that makes my ownership period = the warranty period I’m okay with that.

 

[SaberOne]

I thought about a hybrid, but decided against it due to cost. Essentially, I’d be paying for two different tune-ups and services.

 

[The Critic]

As others have mentioned, there are other benefits to hybrids beyond just the fuel economy savings.

But if you're after the lowest theoretical operating cost for this segment over a 20 year period, you cannot beat a conventional ICE powertrain.

It is very unlikely that you'll make it to 20 years without replacing the hybrid battery; even 15 years is a stretch. My 2011 is at 241K and the hybrid battery has been weak for years. Hybrid battery life is more tied to age than mileage, so if you're able to accrue significant mileage within 12-15 years, the ROI can be there.

Also, hybrid batteries continue to get more expensive. My in-laws recently purchased a 24 RX350h and that one is over $7K installed. The aftermarket has yet to come up with a viable refurbished battery that actually lasts more than a year or two.

 

[maineiac]

As others have mentioned, there are other benefits to hybrids beyond just the fuel economy savings.

But if you're after the lowest theoretical operating cost for this segment over a 20 year period, you cannot beat a conventional ICE powertrain.

It is very unlikely that you'll make it to 20 years without replacing the hybrid battery; even 15 years is a stretch. My 2011 is at 241K and the hybrid battery has been weak for years. Hybrid battery life is more tied to age than mileage, so if you're able to accrue significant mileage within 12-15 years, the ROI can be there.

Also, hybrid batteries continue to get more expensive. My in-laws recently purchased a 24 RX350h and that one is over $7K installed. The aftermarket has yet to come up with a viable refurbished battery that actually lasts more than a year or two.

Other than a weak battery assist, does the vehicle operate like a conventional ICE?