Originally Posted By: jeepman
Originally Posted By: webfors
Like everyone else here I was stuck on syns for a decade, or longer...
With regular maintenance with the cheapest oil you can buy the engine in your car will outlast *everything* else. The lube you choose makes little difference.
After 4 years on bitog that's what I've learned, hence why I now use conventional in my subaru.
Second that. Same lesson I have learned from watching used oil analysis, etc. No need for Syns in the everyday driver.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
...there are still worthwhile reasons to stick with synthetics even with non-extended drains.
1.) Better cold flow for cold startups.
Most modern conventional's have the same pour point as their synthetic counterparts
2.) Much better at handling high temps.
No documented proof to support this
3.) Possibly a wee bit better MPG's
After tracking the MPG in both of my cars over a year period (6 month syn, 6 month conventional), they average 1-1.5 MPG better with Pennzoil conventional, than with PP. And yes, I track it in a piece of auto maintenance software everytime I fill up, same gas station, etc. I would have called it a fluke if it was 1 car, but both are averaging about the same increase. I became curious about this because the debate over Aveo MPG is fierce elsewhere on the internet as the car should do better than it does. Most Aveo owners reported their best MPG with GTX, so I setup conditions to test this using Pennzoil conventional, and brought the Vue along for the ride.
4.) Syn lubes are not much more in price than conventional at W-Mart.
PP - $20.50, M1 - $23.50, Pennzoil conventional -$12.50, MC5000 - $11.00, so almost double on all accounts
5.) An extra margin of safety - isn't that worth a few dollars?
Speculation only
Just saying...
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
My thinking is this. Let's say you like an OCI of around 6000 miles and you average 30 mpg in your Corolla. If you get an extra 3% mileage with synthetic that's a savings of around 6 gallons of gas for the OCI, or around $18 at today's prices. So you've more than paid for the synthetic just on gas savings alone, with the extra potential protection as a bonus. Even if the savings is only 1% in mileage (giving you 30.3 mpg) you would save 2 gallons of gas, or $6, which would probably make the synthetic a break even if you're getting something like PP at WalMart for $20.50. If you feel you can extend your OCI with a synthetic the savings can really add up, plus you spend less weekend time under the car changing oil, which is my main beef with short OCIs.
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Quote:
3% MPG impovement? Not a chance. Protection is the same.
Says you, despite abundant evidence the other way. As I said earlier, just a 1% improvement in mpg would make synthetic break even in cost with conventional, and you'd still have the benefits of better cold flow (less wear at start up), better extreme heat resistance, and better cleaning properties, even if you don't believe that synthetics provide superior protection through better lubrication. It's a no brainer.
See the above bolded text response. Only gain for me was with conventional after a year of tracking MPG on either of my cars, And the no brainer to me is to get those contaminants out of the engine frequently.
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
OK, if you don't believe there is any mpg or wear and tear savings with synthetic, how about modestly increasing your OCI from say 5000 to 7500?
Both of our cars can go safely to 7500 on conventional, according to the OLM in one and the owners manual of the other.
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I even start my 65 year old 6 volt tractors using 15W-40 when it's -15 or -20 out with no problems.
I call B.S! i would LOVE to see that!
Check in with the Europeans who use that grade regularly through many different temps.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Synthetic has a place, but with the quality of most modern conventional oils it's become a marketing ploy that only separates more cash from the masses.
Agreed, synthetic has it's place in very high end applications, but the everyday driver is wasting money IMO.
Originally Posted By: tgw323
Being in Iowa,do you have any Orscheln Farm stores nearby? They usually have a decent price on TropArctic, which is about the same as MC & Kendall. Semi synthetic proven performer.
Great oil, if it can be had for a reasonable price. I miss it now that Wally's doesn't have it at $1.68 a quart anymore.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I dunno if the mpg w/syn oil applies after it's been in the engine 6000 miles compared to fresh conventional oil with new friction modifiers.
Synthetic costs 2x conventional, you could change conventional 2x as often and get a better result. Engine deposits, mpg and even cold cranking is better with fresh conventional oil.
I know others do well with synthetic, but I agree that getting the junk out regularly is a necessity. Besides, I like changing the oil!
Sorry, you're wrong. Synlubes DO and are PROVEN to handle extreme cold and heat better than conventional oil. I've even proven that myself with all of my used oil analysis.
Originally Posted By: webfors
Like everyone else here I was stuck on syns for a decade, or longer...
With regular maintenance with the cheapest oil you can buy the engine in your car will outlast *everything* else. The lube you choose makes little difference.
After 4 years on bitog that's what I've learned, hence why I now use conventional in my subaru.
Second that. Same lesson I have learned from watching used oil analysis, etc. No need for Syns in the everyday driver.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
...there are still worthwhile reasons to stick with synthetics even with non-extended drains.
1.) Better cold flow for cold startups.
Most modern conventional's have the same pour point as their synthetic counterparts
2.) Much better at handling high temps.
No documented proof to support this
3.) Possibly a wee bit better MPG's
After tracking the MPG in both of my cars over a year period (6 month syn, 6 month conventional), they average 1-1.5 MPG better with Pennzoil conventional, than with PP. And yes, I track it in a piece of auto maintenance software everytime I fill up, same gas station, etc. I would have called it a fluke if it was 1 car, but both are averaging about the same increase. I became curious about this because the debate over Aveo MPG is fierce elsewhere on the internet as the car should do better than it does. Most Aveo owners reported their best MPG with GTX, so I setup conditions to test this using Pennzoil conventional, and brought the Vue along for the ride.
4.) Syn lubes are not much more in price than conventional at W-Mart.
PP - $20.50, M1 - $23.50, Pennzoil conventional -$12.50, MC5000 - $11.00, so almost double on all accounts
5.) An extra margin of safety - isn't that worth a few dollars?
Speculation only
Just saying...
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
My thinking is this. Let's say you like an OCI of around 6000 miles and you average 30 mpg in your Corolla. If you get an extra 3% mileage with synthetic that's a savings of around 6 gallons of gas for the OCI, or around $18 at today's prices. So you've more than paid for the synthetic just on gas savings alone, with the extra potential protection as a bonus. Even if the savings is only 1% in mileage (giving you 30.3 mpg) you would save 2 gallons of gas, or $6, which would probably make the synthetic a break even if you're getting something like PP at WalMart for $20.50. If you feel you can extend your OCI with a synthetic the savings can really add up, plus you spend less weekend time under the car changing oil, which is my main beef with short OCIs.
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Quote:
3% MPG impovement? Not a chance. Protection is the same.
Says you, despite abundant evidence the other way. As I said earlier, just a 1% improvement in mpg would make synthetic break even in cost with conventional, and you'd still have the benefits of better cold flow (less wear at start up), better extreme heat resistance, and better cleaning properties, even if you don't believe that synthetics provide superior protection through better lubrication. It's a no brainer.
See the above bolded text response. Only gain for me was with conventional after a year of tracking MPG on either of my cars, And the no brainer to me is to get those contaminants out of the engine frequently.
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
OK, if you don't believe there is any mpg or wear and tear savings with synthetic, how about modestly increasing your OCI from say 5000 to 7500?
Both of our cars can go safely to 7500 on conventional, according to the OLM in one and the owners manual of the other.
Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I even start my 65 year old 6 volt tractors using 15W-40 when it's -15 or -20 out with no problems.
I call B.S! i would LOVE to see that!
Check in with the Europeans who use that grade regularly through many different temps.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Synthetic has a place, but with the quality of most modern conventional oils it's become a marketing ploy that only separates more cash from the masses.
Agreed, synthetic has it's place in very high end applications, but the everyday driver is wasting money IMO.
Originally Posted By: tgw323
Being in Iowa,do you have any Orscheln Farm stores nearby? They usually have a decent price on TropArctic, which is about the same as MC & Kendall. Semi synthetic proven performer.
Great oil, if it can be had for a reasonable price. I miss it now that Wally's doesn't have it at $1.68 a quart anymore.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
I dunno if the mpg w/syn oil applies after it's been in the engine 6000 miles compared to fresh conventional oil with new friction modifiers.
Synthetic costs 2x conventional, you could change conventional 2x as often and get a better result. Engine deposits, mpg and even cold cranking is better with fresh conventional oil.
I know others do well with synthetic, but I agree that getting the junk out regularly is a necessity. Besides, I like changing the oil!
Sorry, you're wrong. Synlubes DO and are PROVEN to handle extreme cold and heat better than conventional oil. I've even proven that myself with all of my used oil analysis.
My used oil analysis, for one example, always show a higher flashpoint with syn lube than conventional and this means the oil will burn off as easy and protect more. Atleast that is my interpretation. Also, when you review specs on synlubes over conventional you will see that they flow better when cold and handle high heat better. I do not have a link now (I am at work but will try to locate some data) but the fact is synthetics do protect better at the extremes. Here is one neat fact for you - GM even eliminated the oil cooler on the LT1 Corvette for 1992 because the switch to Mobil 1 allowed them to.
