Discussion with head of Ford service department

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3,657
Location
St. Charles County, Missouri
I was working at a bbq fundraiser with the head of service at a large Ford dealership. Asked him about 5W20 oil. He said he had formerly used 15W40 in his own cars, but that modern Ford engines had very tight tolerances and that 5W20 was the only preferred weight. Heavier weights could, theoretically damage these engines. I'm still up in the air on this entire subject and glad I drive a Hyundai that actually calls for 10W30 as preferred!
 
Messages
450
Location
Louisville, KY
"modern" ford engine are they same they have been for years. Ford hasnt introduced any new enbgines in years. He may kinda believe what he is saying but its a pure CAFE issue. Fred... [Smile]
 
Messages
4,107
Location
Savannah, GA
quote:
Originally posted by palmerwmd: "modern" ford engine are they same they have been for years. Ford hasnt introduced any new enbgines in years. He may kinda believe what he is saying but its a pure CAFE issue. Fred... [Smile]
I agree, the 4.6 used in several Ford vehicles is over 10 years old!!! The 4.6 in my dad's 96 Mustang that calls for 10W30 is the same as the newer 4.6, just a few minor changes have been made. [I dont know]
 

Al

Messages
19,225
Location
Elizabethtown, Pa
quote:
Originally posted by csandste: modern Ford engines had very tight tolerances and that 5W20 was the only preferred weight. Heavier weights could, theoretically damage these engines.
[Roll Eyes]
 
Messages
922
Location
Ontario , Canada
all those dealership guys are basically brainwashed by whatever their company tells them, they really don't know **** about oil let along engines. This isn't just with Ford, it basically applies to most dealerships.
 
Messages
485
Location
Montgomery, AL
quote:
Originally posted by csandste: 5W20 was the only preferred weight. Heavier weights could, theoretically damage these engines.
2 things 1. How well do you know this guy? He is required to encourage the use of 5w20. If he doesn't he is undermining Ford and may bring the EPA down on him, the dealership, and Ford. 2. Look at the 100c viscosity of 0w30, 5w30 and 5w20. I don't think 30 weight when hot is going to hurt any engine requiring 5w20. Its the cold weather and time before the oil warms up that may hurt an engine. Oil is much thicker when 40c and below. I have yet to see any real evidence that supports the use of 5w20 over 5w30.
 
Messages
885
Location
North Carolina
Something to keep in mind, people frequently mention that "thinner oil is recommended because the TOLERANCES are less than they used to be..." Any time a part is manufactured to a certain specification, is has a manufacturing tolerance. example, Part suchandsuch is stamped from a sheet of metal that is 1/8th inch thick with a tolerance of plus/minus .002 inches. years ago the tolerance might have been plus/minus .005 inches for example. Modern manufacturing equipment can make parts much more consistant than it did years ago, making every engine off the line more consistant with the one before and after it than would have been the case years ago. Clearances between cams/bearings pistons/cylinders are much more consistant in new engines than older ones in other words. The gaps between the parts may be more uniform these days, but not necessarily narrower. The Chevrolet engine knocking problem is due to the new pistons being made slightly smaller diameter in an effort to "loosen" up the fit in the cylinder to reduce the resistance to motion to help with fuel mileage, problem is that it now has some side motion and is causing the knocking sound when carbon is building up in the new larger gap between the cylinder wall and the piston...that new smaller piston diameter is probably very consistant though is the example I'm trying to make. good mornin everyone Rando
 
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1,933
Location
Oklahoma
Please don't tell the EPA my Mothers 1999 4.6 had 15/40 Phillips in it all summer and one trip to Dallas gas milaege was checked and 26 mpg noted. I just 131'nd the crankcase last week and changed the oil and filter yesterday to the same in preparation for her leaving for a probable 4k+ mile trip to California and up North today. The best gas milaege I have seen with the car was when it was new"currently 32k" and saw 29 mpg on a trip with 5/30. When it gets back,it will get the Schaeffers 10/30 put in it all year round
 
Messages
3,329
Location
Bolivia
I think this is more CAFE than tolerances. Here we do not have CAFE. Ford here has U.S. made engines and some from other countries. As I have mentioned before, they insist on 5w30 in all gasoline engines, from the little Ztec's to the Expeditions. I worked this deal directly with the national service manager, who insisted that it be 5w30 Group II or synthetic.
 
Messages
2,235
Location
SE MI
like i said a million times before, 5W-20 is used for CAFE ONLY. I spoke to a Ford engineer who likes to hot-rod Modular motors, a real swell guy - total gearhead. He doesn't buy into that CAFE/EPA crap and recommends 5W-30 for 400-500hp 4.6 V8s. I know folks with 450 hp blown 4.6s in T-birds that run DINO 5W-30 w/o any problems. I wouldn't use 10W-30 (unless it was top of the line pAO synthetic) for OHC motors. Ford's DOHC and SOHC V8s have had minor changes over the course of 10+ years and are "new" considering Ford used the 289? small block for over 30 years and made some changes to make 302/351s (M, C, and W). Heck, the 7.5L gas V8s stopped after 97 in the F-350s. So yes, the 4.6L SOHC, DOHC, 5.4L SOHC, DOHC, and V10s are "new" engines. Don't use 5W-20, DO use 5W-30 or top of the line synthetic 10W-30. Anything thicker is used for pure racing (15W-50 Mobil 1 in Cobra-R, KEYWORD: "R") When Ford puts a R badging on something at the factory they mean business.
 

Jay

Messages
1,607
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
Looking at it another way, who's to say 5w-20 is bad for an engine? Nobody here has offered one shred of evidence to say that 5w-20 will cause more engine wear than a 30 weight. Oils have greatly improved over the years and the films are much stronger. The API SL and GF-3 standards are so tough that oil makers can't meet them with group I oils only. They have to have some group II or better. Mobil 1's first synthetic was 20 weight and CAFE wasn't around to twist their arms to come up with that weight.
 
Messages
903
Location
CA
I'd like to see what the tolerances are for the V8s you guys have. Main journal clearance for my Honda bike is .0008-.0015 inches. Unless you've got significantly tighter tolerances I can't see why you need 20 wieght or even 30 weight oil.
 

driven2services

Administrator
Messages
0
quote:
Originally posted by Tim H.: Please excuse my ignorance on this, but what is CAFE and how does it relate to Ford?
Corporate Average Fuel Economy. U. S. law requires that a car maker's CAFE be 27.5 mpg, or, "49 U.S.C. 32912(b) imposes a civil penalty of $5.50 for each tenth of a mpg by which a manufacturer's CAFE level falls short of the standard, multiplied by the total number of passenger automobiles or light trucks produced by the manufacturer in that model year. Credits earned for exceeding the standard in any of the three model years immediately prior to or subsequent to the model years in question can be used to offset the penalty." http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/studies/fuelecon/index.html The actual CAFE achieved by a car maker depends on lots of things, including variables such as which vehicles and engines consumers choose to puchase. If they can achieve a lower CAFE by any means, including a fraction of a mpg with lighter viscosity oil, that's money in the car maker's pocket. Ken
 

driven2services

Administrator
Messages
0
quote:
Originally posted by Jay: Looking at it another way, who's to say 5w-20 is bad for an engine? Nobody here has offered one shred of evidence to say that 5w-20 will cause more engine wear than a 30 weight. Oils have greatly improved over the years and the films are much stronger. The API SL and GF-3 standards are so tough that oil makers can't meet them with group I oils only. They have to have some group II or better. Mobil 1's first synthetic was 20 weight and CAFE wasn't around to twist their arms to come up with that weight.
By the way, 5W-20 has to meet higher specs from Ford & Honda than API-SL & ILSAC GF-3 specs. "Ford and Honda have actually established test limits for SAE 5W-20 engine oils that go beyond the requirements of API SL/ILSAC GF-3. Ford requires either a double-length (160 hours) Sequence IIIF test or a double-length (128 hours) Sequence IIIE test with a maximum viscosity increase of 200%. The corresponding limits for the single-length tests are 275% maximum and 375% maximum, respectively. In addition, Ford’s limit for high temperature deposits in the TEOST MHT-4 test is 30 mg maximum compared with 45 mg maximum allowed under API SL/ILSAC GF-3. Similarly, Honda also requires a double-length Sequence IIIF test or a double-length Sequence IIIE test, but the viscosity limits are the same as the single-length tests. Obviously, meeting either of these requirements is very difficult. Again, higher quality base oils and/or significantly higher levels of antioxidant are required." http://www.tosco.com/internet_pub/repository/lubes/44_tn3_4.pdf Ken
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,837
Location
Iowegia - USA
But do any of those tests show the wear per 1,000 miles verses say a 10W30 or higher viscosity oil? Tighter tolerances simply mean the dimensions of the parts are kept closer together and are not allowed to drift away from the specs very far. Clearnances refer to gaps or spaces between say the journal and the bearings.
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
21,993
Location
Oakville, Ontario
Metroplex, you say these guys use 5w30 dino oil, but will not use 5w20. Do you realize that most 5w30 dino oil will thin out to 5w20 oil after a short time anyways? Even a good synthetic 5w30 can thin out to a 20wt, I've seen it happen many times. If they are able to use a 5w30, there is no logical reason as to why they can't use 10w30. The two oils flow just as quickly on a cold start when it's 80-100F outside. Heck, even when it's 50F they will flow virtually the same on a cold start. [ September 29, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
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