Difficult Starting Torro Mower with Kawasaki FJ180V Engine

[grasscutter]

There's a parts distributor that offers the service manual for download online. Very nice of them to do so.

https://mymowerparts.com/pdf/Kawasa...ls/FJ180V--KAWASAKI-SERVICE-REPAIR-MANUAL.pdf

 

[Opelman]

There is a big difference in bulb starting assist systems. The little 2 strokers use a purge bulb where the bulb pulls fuel and any accumulated air out of the carburetor and return it to the tank while drawing non aerated fuel into and through the carb. This type will have fuel in the bulb. The larger Briggs, Tecumseh, Chicom, mower/ snow thrower engines use a primer bulb. This is usually part of the float bowl vent. That bitty hole in the center of the bulb is the vent hole. When you put your finger on the bulb, you plug the hole and by squashing the rubber down one is pushing a puff of air into the float bowl. This forces fuel up the main jet into the carburetor throat to add some fuel to richen up the mixture for cold starting. This type of system does not put fuel in the bulb under normal circumstances. The Kawasaki in question looks odd, single tube so it's a primer, but low enough to be wet. I'd like to see better pics of that one.

 

[super20dan]

i have mowers with kawi fj180v with both choke systems and some with the primer bulb. simply put the primer bulb system sucks. the bulb is low quality and doesn't last long. and finding replacement not easy. the choke system mowers. start 1or 2 pulls every time.

 

[Nessism1]

Broke out the Toro/Kawasaki mower today, and it was as cantankerous as always to start. Once started, though, it ran like a beast. The grass was as tall as the engine in places, and the engine plowed on with just a little slow down. I'll pull off the carb and try to figure out why it's not getting fuel during starts. I presume there is some sort of automatic choke that's not working properly. Or, maybe sucking false air, because the primer bulb doesn't seem to do much.

 

[mk378]

There is no choke. It is counting on the bulb system to force some raw gas into the intake before you pull the rope. That fires a couple of times, then there is enough rpm for it to run on its own.

You can get similar results by spraying starting fluid first.

 

[Nessism1]

Pulled the carb and holy heck, but a cluster ****. There is a major difference in the integration between a Honda engine/carb in a Honda mower, and a Kawasaki engine in a Toro mower. Had to take off way more stuff just to pop off the carb. For example, the wheel adjustment bar was in the way. Tons of wasted energy.

Regarding the prime plunger, it's no wonder that it doesn't work, because there are several inches of tubing in the circuit. Info on the mower says to press the prime bulb 2x, but even pressing 20x won't push fuel into the carb. Honestly, not sure where to go from here. I had to stop working after getting frustrated. I'll look again tomorrow to see if I can find a path forward...

 

[Nukeman7]

Regarding the prime plunger, it's no wonder that it doesn't work, because there are several inches of tubing in the circuit. Info on the mower says to press the prime bulb 2x, but even pressing 20x won't push fuel into the carb. Honestly, not sure where to go from here. I had to stop working after getting frustrated. I'll look again tomorrow to see if I can find a path forward...

The length of the tubing should not matter since the volume of air displaced by pressing the primer bulb is directly proportional to the amount of fuel/air mixture that should be forced up the main jet into the carburetor throat. If you look at the illustration below, the main jet tube shows ~6 small holes at the base which should be submerged in gas inside the carb bowl. When the primer bulb is pressed, fuel should be pulled into the main jet emulsion tube (up flow airstream) via the venturi effect. If those holes are clogged, they need to be cleaned out with carb cleaner and compressed air. Using a fine wire requires extra caution to prevent enlarging the holes.

 

[Nessism1]

The length of the tubing should not matter since the volume of air displaced by pressing the primer bulb is directly proportional to the amount of fuel/air mixture that should be forced up the main jet into the carburetor throat. If you look at the illustration below, the main jet tube shows ~6 small holes at the base which should be submerged in gas inside the carb bowl. When the primer bulb is pressed, fuel should be pulled into the main jet emulsion tube (up flow airstream) via the venturi effect. If those holes are clogged, they need to be cleaned out with carb cleaner and compressed air. Using a fine wire requires extra caution to prevent enlarging the holes.
View attachment 319856

Thanks for the info...

Does the bulb have a build-in check valve? Allowing air in, which gets pushed when the bulb is depressed? I'll make sure the carb is clean, which I think it is, because the mower runs well...once it starts. Then focus attention on the bulb system.

And FWIW, I've been removing the air filter, shooting carburetor cleaner inside as starter fluid, then pulling the cord in order to get it to start. Even at that, it's hard to start. I'm not a wimp, but pulling the cord is hard work. It takes a mighty pull to get any rotational speed in the engine.

 

[Nukeman7]

I'm not certain, but I doubt that your primer bulb has a check valve because there has to be a return air path to re-inflate the bulb. The heavy weight of the Kawasaki's flywheel is key to its massive torque output, but it also makes it harder to pull the rope. I still think you should check the valve lash settings on the OHC because mine were loose from the factory which led to hard starting until I adjusted them (and the choke cable on my model which did not have the primer bulb).

 

[mk378]

Starting fluid has a lot more kick than carb cleaner. You should be able to spray it into the holes that lead to the outside of the air filter without removing the filter.

 

[Nessism1]

Whelp, found at least part of the problem.

The carb is grunged up beyond anything I was expecting. From day one, running this mower, I used stabilized fuel. Same as my other lawn equipment that runs perfectly.

I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to cleaning a carburetor. In fact, I've been rebuilding 45 year old motorcycle carburetors and selling O-rings as a money making hobby for several years now. That said, I'm flummoxed that this carb would look this bad after only a year with stabilized fuel.

Some of the gaskets self-destructed when pulling off the carb. The bowl O-ring is crudded up and looks pitted. And the white scale is not just common fuel varnish.

I'm going to write Toro a nice little email tonight, seeing what they say. Sadly, I don't have the ability to move this 120 lb monster to the shop, other than by renting a truck. Not happy...

 

[Nessism1]

Since posting this, I've been searching the internet for information and parts to fix this thing.

Surprisingly, Toro.com and most other parts supply locations, like Jack's, does not have any info about carb parts. Almost unbelievable, considering carb problems must be the lions share of complaints.

Open to suggestions, otherwise, it seems I may be on my own. Not a good sign for the future, even if I get this thing cleaned up in the short term.

 

[Nukeman7]

Since posting this, I've been searching the internet for information and parts to fix this thing.

Surprisingly, Toro.com and most other parts supply locations, like Jack's, does not have any info about carb parts. Almost unbelievable, considering carb problems must be the lions share of complaints.

Open to suggestions, otherwise, it seems I may be on my own. Not a good sign for the future, even if I get this thing cleaned up in the short term.

Here you go: PartsTree.com

 

[Nessism1]

Here you go: PartsTree.com

My engine doesn't show. FJ180V-DM17-M

Can't find any info regarding parts for my engine. Most parts are at least somewhat common, so the gaskets I need are most likely interchangeable.

That said, I'll likely just cut out the gaskets from gasket paper. Gotta check the float bowl gasket O-ring, though. Can't make that.

While I can appreciate that the Kawasaki FJ180 is a beat of a strong engine, parts, the difficulty of support make this machine inferior to a lower level Honda.

 

[Nukeman7]

My engine doesn't show. FJ180V-DM17-M

Can't find any info regarding parts for my engine. Most parts are at least somewhat common, so the gaskets I need are most likely interchangeable.

That said, I'll likely just cut out the gaskets from gasket paper. Gotta check the float bowl gasket O-ring, though. Can't make that.

While I can appreciate that the Kawasaki FJ180 is a beat of a strong engine, parts, the difficulty of support make this machine inferior to a lower level Honda.

Supposedly, the two letters preceding "17" denote the specific brand of mower that the Kawasaki engine was made for. In your case, "DM" means the motor was supplied to Toro/Exmark. I believe the paper gasket and the o-ring for the bowl are the same parts for the FJ180V-EM17 engine at the PartsTree website.

Kawasaki 11060-2190

Kawasaki 11061-2215

You can also go to a local authorized Toro dealership to look up parts for nearly any Toro mower. Coincidentally, I recently had my Toro dealer special order a similar carb bowl o-ring for a Briggs GTS engine on my 1985 Toro Super Recycler mower. It cost $7, but it arrived in 3 days.

 

[Opelman]

Supposedly, the two letters preceding "17" denote the specific brand of mower that the Kawasaki engine was made for. In your case, "DM" means the motor was supplied to Toro/Exmark. I believe the paper gasket and the o-ring for the bowl are the same parts for the FJ180V-EM17 engine at the PartsTree website.

Kawasaki 11060-2190

Kawasaki 11061-2215

You can also go to a local authorized Toro dealership to look up parts for nearly any Toro mower. Coincidentally, I recently had my Toro dealer special order a similar carb bowl o-ring for a Briggs GTS engine on my 1985 Toro Super Recycler mower. It cost $7, but it arrived in 3 days.

Same deal with Kawasaki on John Deere machines. Model is the same, spec number is different and not listed on the Kawasaki dealer portal. Proprietary stuff, sometimes there is no difference, sometimes yes. Your carb stuff should interchange without issue. I once transplanted a Kawasaki from a Craftsman tractor on to a John Deere. Same model, different spec. The only difference was Imperial threads vs Metric threads for the engine mounting bolts.

 

[Nessism1]

I'm going to work on cleaning out the white scale today, and either make new gaskets, or get some on order. Then, shift to study of the prime system.

My carb is different from the diagram shown above. The prime charge doesn't shoot up through the bowl hold-down screw, it comes in on an angle, and has a dedicated passage. Something about this circuit is not working properly. Maybe more grunge. I'll investigate more closely, and hopefully, figure out something. Again, this poor starting was from day one. Hope the design isn't just fubar, and hopeless.

 

[Nukeman7]

I'm going to work on cleaning out the white scale today, and either make new gaskets, or get some on order. Then, shift to study of the prime system.

My carb is different from the diagram shown above. The prime charge doesn't shoot up through the bowl hold-down screw, it comes in on an angle, and has a dedicated passage.

I think your carb is the same one that is shown for the EM17 engine below. The bowl has a angled pipe (denoted as "A" below) where the primer bulb air enters the carb instead of through the bottom screw. I suspect that angled pipe passage is clogged with the white deposits.

Something about this circuit is not working properly. Maybe more grunge. I'll investigate more closely, and hopefully, figure out something. Again, this poor starting was from day one. Hope the design isn't just fubar, and hopeless.

That white grunge doesn't look similar to the fluffy white deposits typically found inside carburetors that have oxidized metal corrosion. It looks more like some kind of film residue as if a coating in the bowl dissolved or a contaminant was introduced through the fuel tank. I've never seen any similar deposits on a throttle plate butterfly valve which is typically made of corrosion resistant (e.g., "yellow") metal.

 

[Nessism1]

I think your carb is the same one that is shown for the EM17 engine below. The bowl has a angled pipe (denoted as "A" below) where the primer bulb air enters the carb instead of through the bottom screw. I suspect that angled pipe passage is clogged with the white deposits.

View attachment 320049

That white grunge doesn't look similar to the fluffy white deposits typically found inside carburetors that have oxidized metal corrosion. It looks more like some kind of film residue as if a coating in the bowl dissolved or a contaminant was introduced through the fuel tank. I've never seen any similar deposits on a throttle plate butterfly valve which is typically made of corrosion resistant (e.g., "yellow") metal.

This illustration represents my carbs set up.

What I don't understand is how the prime function works; the bulb is sealed, and needs to draw air from somewhere, but where?

On the bottom of the carb, where the main jet resides, there was some black residue (which I scraped off), suggesting some sort of seal, but the parts diagram doesn't show anything there. If this was sealed, how would fuel or air get into the circuit? I think this is the crux of the problem; the system doesn't have a proper flow path. Should the bulb push air, or fuel? Where is the flow path? I'm starting to think this is a flawed design. But how to improve?

 

[mk378]

That yellow stuff looks cosmetic to me and I wouldn't fret a lot about removing it. Whatever goes on at the bottom of the bowl is more important.

If you're willing to swap enough parts intended for other versions, you could convert it to conventional choke. That would be the carb and whatever controls the choke, and maybe the air cleaner / upper intake. Someone here said that even when the bulb system works, it doesn't work very well.

California regulators probably frown on chokes since it is easy to leave a choke on while running which will make a lot of pollution.