DIFFERENT OILS AND NO FILTER ON ENGINE

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no matter what filter you use, I wouldn't use any more than 3k miles. after that, they seem to be in bypass mode no matter what.

I haven't finished my oil filter test and will not as I had health problems so I will give to joee12 all I have and hope he does it all. If I left a picture of your filter then I have tested it under the coditions I stated, and if one seems to be yours then I stand by it.

as for scientific, I made no mention it was but I do show how each one is different and if you don't want to believe it, I wont argue with you. I took pictures of all the filters I tested and let them speak for themselves.

I will no longer use a good filter as I, like others, think it is a waste of money and that it will only catch big stuff, and if you have big stuff in your engine, you got more to worry about than that filter will take out.

I ran without a filter and found it to work as well as any with a filter.
 
If they only catch big stuff and they go into bypass after 3000 miles wouldn't that imply that it is catching stuff?
 
no not really. the older it gets the crappier the pores are. meaning, they get smaller the pores and as time goes on evently it wont filter out oil. the pores get smaller or should I say the filter media gets wider which makes the pores get smaller.
 
This is going to come as a shock to most of you, but without their massive and complex (and expensive) additive packages, synthetic base stocks are WORTHLESS as lubricants..

On the other hand, straight mineral oil is an excellent lubricant all by itself. With a big additive package, mineral oil excells. It's only weakness is temperature, both high and low. Keep the temperature between 20 degrees and 240 degrees fahrenheit and mineral oil has no equals...
 
Bob's amazing discovery...Oil filters do little or nothing...And he may be right! They are undoubtedly a good idea for the first few oil changes to gather up all the debris left over from mass production, but after that....

But don't think for a minute Fram, Puro, Wix, Champion et al are going to let Bob destroy a multi-billion dollar a year industry! But paying more than $3 for one is insane! A magnetic drain plug will work just as well!

What's the catch here? UOA does not detect the big lumps floating around. These large flake -offs must be trapped in a filter before they can do serious damage. UOA can only detect DISSOLVED metals and chemicals which pass right through ANY filter.
 
zoom, I used 3k filters and found them to be stopped up a lot higher than new. as for in bypass mode or not, I have no way of telling if so or not, but let me say that no way would I leave a filter on if my filter was stopped up.
so no, I have no evidence just from a view of stopped up filters after 3k.
 
I suspect the filter media itself, the paper (or whatever) fibers are slowly penetrated by the oil causing them to swell and expand. Hot, high detergent oil is a powerful solvent...This would reduce the flow-rate of the filter, turning it into a by-pass filter in the later stages of it's life..If it was debris plugging the filter, automotive engines would not last 20,000 miles. An engine that sheds that much material will not last very long..

Bob, you could intensionally plug a filter (fill it full of lacquor or vacuum cleaner dirt, then pressurize it and see when the by-pass valve pops open..Then you would know for sure at what pressure drop oil filters go into by-pass. Or you could just ask a company rep...
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fuelrod:
This is going to come as a shock to most of you, but without their massive and complex (and expensive) additive packages, synthetic base stocks are WORTHLESS as lubricants..

On the other hand, straight mineral oil is an excellent lubricant all by itself. With a big additive package, mineral oil excells. It's only weakness is temperature, both high and low. Keep the temperature between 20 degrees and 240 degrees fahrenheit and mineral oil has no equals...
Click to expand...
Fuelrod. This seems off topic, but very interesting. Why don't you repost it as a new thread. Should result in some interesting discussion.
 
quote:
Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
no matter what filter you use, I wouldn't use any more than 3k miles. after that, they seem to be in bypass mode no matter what.

I haven't finished my oil filter test and will not as I had health problems so I will give to joee12 all I have and hope he does it all. If I left a picture of your filter then I have tested it under the coditions I stated, and if one seems to be yours then I stand by it.

as for scientific, I made no mention it was but I do show how each one is different and if you don't want to believe it, I wont argue with you. I took pictures of all the filters I tested and let them speak for themselves.

I will no longer use a good filter as I, like others, think it is a waste of money and that it will only catch big stuff, and if you have big stuff in your engine, you got more to worry about than that filter will take out.

I ran without a filter and found it to work as well as any with a filter.
Click to expand...
bob were you able to confirm this claim by taking oil filter that was used for 3k miles and putting it on your test set up to verify that inded is running in the bypass mode?
 
Thanks Motorbike. That is a very interesting thread. Seems film strength increases with viscosity and with base oil quality. If I had to use a 5w20, I would feel much more confident with an ester base.

BACK ON TOPIC: I am suprised that oil filters would be effectively clogged at 3000 miles. Makes me want to keep running the 16 gpm Fleetguards but for they have the bypass in the bottom of the can. Is is safe to assume that running a clogged filter in bypass is not going to provide as good of oil flow/pressure as if you just had an empty can (no filter, no bypass valve) screwed on?
 
Geoff, I was running a mobil 1 filter when I discovered it was holding the oil. I would take and turn upside down the filter, for a month, then cut open the filter and the oil would splash out between the can and the filter media. So I would say it has a very resictive filter media. If you don't believe me, try and do like I did for a month, then cut it open.
 
How does a Mobil 1 filter perform relative to the others in this context (Fuel rod's comments above), with its synthetic media?

[ January 12, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Geoff ]
 
A whole month upside down and when cut open oil splashed out,WOW!!!!! So it looks like 3k filter changes is in my maintenance plan...I need to read the filter study for sure...The study was done with conventional oil right????? Would a synthetic be any different??? I can't see how,dirt is dirt but alas I am a beginner...Time to reread this whole thread...Interesting indeed,thanks Bob..
 
Someone sent me this page and wanted my comment..lol

Consumers are free to do whatever they want. If the engine is under manufacturers warranty, one may want to rethink not using a filter.

But it looks like there are those who debate why use a filter at all.

I would think that one might consider the particles removed by the element. Whether the engine is new or not, between oil changes particles of contaminant end up in the oil. It's the filters job to remove as effectively as the media allows ( efficiency) to remove particles out of the oil.

People can run all the tests they want and devise their own. I don't buy the claim that filters go into by-pass at 3,000 miles or so.

It is my experience in laboratory conditions, that engineers would test used filters run on their personal vehicles at 3,000 and none were anywhere near the 20 psid differential that is the agreed standard for a filter element being "plugged". In fact most of the time the element is nearer 4-8 psid after 3,000 miles.

Some of the engineers ran oil analysis on their engines, use "experimental" media from time to time, and are always checking the filter with the lab equipment when they remove it to learn more from a practical application.

One of the engineers I used to work with has a Honda with over 250,000 miles and never needed engine work. ( maybe 300k by now)


As filter companies have machines that test if the relief valve is in working properly, I find it interesting when people have claimed that filters go into by-pass as often as some of the claims. I don't agree with those statements but I don't have the lab equipment to prove people wrong. But filter companies do run tests on used filters including relief valve ones. And not just once to see if it still works. Try 'deliberately' restricting flow to make a relief valve open on a used filter. So that's why I have problems believing relief valves are used as often as the claims are in here when someone been driving the vehicle at high revs,or when it goes around corners, or some of the other claims that i've read. But if that's what you want to believe, it's your choice. It may just open but then close just as quickly.

I'll admit that people who play the filter and specs game, usually change their oil when they should and use better filters ( except bobtheoilguy apparently..lol). Hence they have engines which receive tender loving care.

But if your planning on not keeping your pride and joy, then do what you want.


But then there are the real world stories. Such as: I know of someone who had a company car. Never changed the oil or filter for 2 years. And nothing happened, other than the person who got the car second hand couldn't believe the sludge in the oil pan. If I remember correctly it had in excess of 30,000 miles on it. I think he was "topping" off with oil when it was getting low. Maybe engines are built to withstand more abuse than some may think.

Like I said..consumers can do what they want.
wink.gif
 
I think what fuelrod is getting at is that Pure PAOs in general are not a very polar molecule, so in that sense their affinity for metal surfaces is lower than esters or mineral oils. However, that can cut both ways: "When a too polar base fluid is used, it, and not the anti-wear additives, will cover the metal surfaces. This can result in higher wear characteristics. Consequently, although esters have superior lubricity properties compared to mineral oil, thay are less efficient than anti-wear addititves."--From Chemistry & Technology of Lubricants Second edition. That is why the blending and formulating in PAO's is so important, in a formulated oil the AW and AO additives play an extremely large role. In fact without the AO's added to PAOs you can sometimes see lower oxodative stability than in mineral oils, due to mineral oils natural occuring anti-oxidants, left, (and often purposely) in the refining process--just another reason why oils are formulated not pure basestock.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fuelrod:
I suspect the filter media itself, the paper (or whatever) fibers are slowly penetrated by the oil causing them to swell and expand.
Click to expand...
In addition, if we consider the physics of adhesion and surface tension, it may go a long way to explain the phenomenon Bob describes without automatically assuming used filters are "plugged up" beyond use by 3K miles.

They may be acting more like bypass filters at 40 microns as they age and/or are used.

[ January 14, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
Geoff, I was running a mobil 1 filter when I discovered it was holding the oil. I would take and turn upside down the filter, for a month, then cut open the filter and the oil would splash out between the can and the filter media. So I would say it has a very resictive filter media. If you don't believe me, try and do like I did for a month, then cut it open.
Click to expand...
I've done the same thing with Motorcraft and Fram filters. I let them sit a week or two inlet down before I cut them open. They always have some oil in them when I cut them.

The oil is viscous enough especially when it's cold that it's not going to drain all that easily by gravity.

I bet it would flow right out with a tiny amount of pressure though...
 
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