Different countries using different viscosities

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: SR5
Don't forget oil change interval (OCI). If I'm changing oil every second year or 30,000 KM / 20,000 Mi then I want a large HTHS reserve and a high TBN (10 or more). Hence A3/B4 oils.

If I'm changing oil every 6 months / 10,000KM / 6,000Mi then an ILSAC oil will probably work fine.


Yeah, I'm not sure ILSAC oil should suffice in Euro engine, even on shorter runs. Engines designed around higher dynamic viscosities' do not like altering that.

Sludge, varnish, turbo feed pipes would be my third concern. Lots of heat in these engines.

Also, European engines were designed from scratch to be in service in first world countries using top quality oils, fuels and roads. Take only one factor out of equation, like US petrol, and we get intake deposits or whatever. That problem was never as massive in Europe.

While I agree that many high performance cars need a high HTHS oil regardless of OCI. My European car has a 1.8L NA 4-cylinder engine producing a massive 95kW. Depending on who you listen to, the OCI is 24 months / 30,000KM with a A3/B4 oil like Mobil 1 0W-40.

I'm not convinced that it can't handle 6 month / 8,000 KM oil changes on something like an ILSAC Mobil 1 5w30.

 

[volodymyr]

Originally Posted By: SR5
My European car has a 1.8L NA 4-cylinder engine producing a massive 95kW. Depending on who you listen to, the OCI is 24 months / 30,000KM with a A3/B4 oil like Mobil 1 0W-40.

I'm not convinced that it can't handle 6 month / 8,000 KM oil changes on something like an ILSAC Mobil 1 5w30.


Is it that massive? Modern DIG-T 1.2 liter engines from Nissan are producing ~ 115 hp and the oil change interval for those is 20'000 km/1 year with 5W-40 A3/B4 oils.

 

[Silk]

Different countries - 4 pages about Europe and the USA. In the Southern Hemisphere we have heated discussions about Vegemite or Marmite - I find Marmite a bit thin and favour the thicker Vegemite. What are they doing in Asia, Africa and South America? Millions of more cars, what are they doing with their oil...do they even change it? Do they know about thick and thin....do they even care?

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Originally Posted By: SR5
My European car has a 1.8L NA 4-cylinder engine producing a massive 95kW. Depending on who you listen to, the OCI is 24 months / 30,000KM with a A3/B4 oil like Mobil 1 0W-40.

I'm not convinced that it can't handle 6 month / 8,000 KM oil changes on something like an ILSAC Mobil 1 5w30.


Is it that massive? Modern DIG-T 1.2 liter engines from Nissan are producing ~ 115 hp and the oil change interval for those is 20'000 km/1 year with 5W-40 A3/B4 oils.


No 95kW is not massive, I was joking. Sorry, bit hard over the 'net. And it may only be 90kW, I'm going by memory. But no turbo and no DIG, so I'm not convinced I need to use a 40 Wt oil.

Not that a xW-40 A3/B4 is any problem in Australia, it's our most common grade.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...e_a#Post4039838

My question is will a ILSAC 5w30 oil really explode my AH Astra engine, or is the 40weight A3/B4 spec more a function of extended OCI ? Or European tradition ?

Maybe I do need a HTHS of 3.5 to protect something.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Silk
Different countries - 4 pages about Europe and the USA. In the Southern Hemisphere we have heated discussions about Vegemite or Marmite - I find Marmite a bit thin and favour the thicker Vegemite. What are they doing in Asia, Africa and South America? Millions of more cars, what are they doing with their oil...do they even change it? Do they know about thick and thin....do they even care?


Vegemite !!!

Marmite is yuck ...

(this blooody auto-spell correct chokes on almost every word I write)

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Men At Work did not sing about Marmite, so I don't know a thing about it.
;^)

Looking at the major European countries vs. the US in particular, is it possible that one area chooses to regulate fuel consumption through high direct taxation on the fuel itself while the other uses CAFE, which might be seen as a form of indirect taxation through higher vehicle costs and, possibly, some extra engine wear?

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Men At Work did not sing about Marmite, so I don't know a thing about it.
;^)

Looking at the major European countries vs. the US in particular, is it possible that one area chooses to regulate fuel consumption through high direct taxation on the fuel itself while the other uses CAFE, which might be seen as a form of indirect taxation through higher vehicle costs and, possibly, some extra engine wear?

I would think you are correct. CAFE is just your authorities measure to reduce overall impact on environment and consumption of fossil fuels you as a nation have with love for pick-ups. Other is less refined fuel to keep the cost down. European model of high taxation would be hard to implement now.
Driving small, economical cars in Europe was a necessity, not choice. Europe was completely destroyed and poor by any standard. Not until mid 50s Euro mid-class start to rise, and afford small family cars. (of course, in western Europe). Todays Europe's love for smaller cars is just historical heritage.
Just as driving big is American.
American middle class have highest income from late 19 century. After WW2 gap between USA and Europe is enormous. American middle class is richest on the planet , and your parents could afford to drive big, powerful and expensive. Why drive 4 pot Renault when you can afford v8.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Average user in USA is at much lower speed than average user in German(especially on Autobahn). I'm pretty sure any engine at redline would generate a lot more heat than the same engine at half throttle. Higher oil temp needs higher viscosity.

That why German drivers should use somewhat thicker oil than US drivers.

That is only one factor. Engine design , vehicle's target market also should be considered.
That is why MB, BMW, FIAT ,VW all require 5w40 or thick 5w30 in the States.

This was what I said too: "any engine at redline would generate a lot more heat than the same engine at half throttle"

One example: My 2000 E430 rarely see above 3000 RPM, less than 1% of all the time the engine is running. The same car on Autobahn can easily see 5,000-6,000 RPM most of the time.

I am 100% sure that this same car has higher oil temperature while driving on Autobahn than on US highway, as much as 20-30C higher.

For each 10C temperature rise(fall), oil should be increase(decrease) by 1 grade to have the same thickness.

So, instead of Mobil 1 0W40 should be used in my E430 as recommended by MB sheet 229.5 I used 0W20 in it as of now. I am one of the very few who use oil according to how the car is operated, not by the manual written for extreme driving condition(high speed driving on Autobahn).

On the other hand, I like a little thicker oil in my S2000 because it is operated more aggressive and 10W30 is not adequate as Honda recommended.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Average user in USA is at much lower speed than average user in German(especially on Autobahn). I'm pretty sure any engine at redline would generate a lot more heat than the same engine at half throttle. Higher oil temp needs higher viscosity.

That why German drivers should use somewhat thicker oil than US drivers.

That is only one factor. Engine design , vehicle's target market also should be considered.
That is why MB, BMW, FIAT ,VW all require 5w40 or thick 5w30 in the States.

This was what I said too: "any engine at redline would generate a lot more heat than the same engine at half throttle"

One example: My 2000 E430 rarely see above 3000 RPM, less than 1% of all the time the engine is running. The same car on Autobahn can easily see 5,000-6,000 RPM most of the time.

I am 100% sure that this same car has higher oil temperature while driving on Autobahn than on US highway, as much as 20-30C higher.

For each 10C temperature rise(fall), oil should be increase(decrease) by 1 grade to have the same thickness.

So, instead of Mobil 1 0W40 should be used in my E430 as recommended by MB sheet 229.5 I used 0W20 in it as of now. I am one of the very few who use oil according to how the car is operated, not by the manual written for extreme driving condition(high speed driving on Autobahn).

On the other hand, I like a little thicker oil in my S2000 because it is operated more aggressive and 10W30 is not adequate as Honda recommended.


There's no autobahns' in the States yet MB advise to use 229.5 there. Why? BMW knows that typical US buyer won't explore total potential of their cars as Europeans often do. So why LL01 spec? CAFE applies to them too. Why not ILSAC?
Bearing loads and temperatures are unknown quantity to us. I personally wouldn't deviate from OEMs recommendations concerning minimum HT-HS requirements. You're playing with fire IMO. Nothing to gain, only engine damage.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
There's no autobahns' in the States yet MB advise to use 229.5 there. Why? BMW knows that typical US buyer won't explore total potential of their cars as Europeans often do. So why LL01 spec? CAFE applies to them too. Why not ILSAC?
Bearing loads and temperatures are unknown quantity to us. I personally wouldn't deviate from OEMs recommendations concerning minimum HT-HS requirements. You're playing with fire IMO. Nothing to gain, only engine damage.

I had been paying with fire since 2008 when the engine was 100k miles and it is 180k miles now. The E430 engine was/is much quieter and throttle response was/is much more responsive with xW20 than 0W40. No oil consumption with either grade.

The reason was the engine was so noisy with Mobil 1 0W40, sounded like a diesel engine not a gas engine back in 2007-2008, I decided to use Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 and immediately the engine was much quieter within 10-20 miles. The bonus was/is gas mileage improved by about 1.5-2.0 MPG.

You don't actually know what will do to your particular engine with your driving situation, until you carefully analyze yours and try what you think is best. Sometime it worked as you calculated, other time it wouldn't.

 

[chrisri]

Well I'm genuinely happy it's working out for you. Personally, I can't afford the time or effort to explore something that has already been done by engineers'. For me altering a dynamic viscosity is a big no-no.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: chrisri

There's no autobahns' in the States yet MB advise to use 229.5 there. Why? BMW knows that typical US buyer won't explore total potential of their cars as Europeans often do. So why LL01 spec? CAFE applies to them too. Why not ILSAC?
Bearing loads and temperatures are unknown quantity to us. I personally wouldn't deviate from OEMs recommendations concerning minimum HT-HS requirements. You're playing with fire IMO. Nothing to gain, only engine damage.


Do any European countries other than Germany have the super high speed highways?

The only place I have driven in Europe was Italy, which, I believe, had fairly moderate highway speed limits (that did not keep A8s from constantly warp speeding past my little Benz econobox). I was only driven in a car once on the one trip I took to Germany, took trains pretty much everywhere...that drive was just from a Hannover office to and from a restaurant for lunch, anyway. I was VERY impressed with the rail network...

 

[volodymyr]

I think legal unlimited speed highways are only in Germany. Yet people often think that in Germany the motorway speeds are never regulated. This is not true, there are some sections of motorway where the speed is limited to 110/130 km/h I think.

In Italy they installed recently radars which measure average speed between point A and B, so ...

Usual limits in Europe are between 120 km/h (Switzerland) and 130 km/h (Italy, France).

Of course in some places in Eastern Europe people do not respect legal limits and drive like crazy. But there they prefer A3/B4 oils due to higher speeds and due to high sulfur fuels.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
There's no autobahns' in the States yet MB advise to use 229.5 there. Why? BMW knows that typical US buyer won't explore total potential of their cars as Europeans often do. So why LL01 spec? CAFE applies to them too. Why not ILSAC?


In my view, it's the same as the reason that the don't spec downrated tyres in countries where the speed limit(s) mean that you can never exploit the potential of the vehicle.

Few decades ago, the tyre industry wanted to offer vehicle owners tyres that were appropriate for Australian speed limits, although the factory spec was anything up to "Z"...regulators wouldn't have a bar of it, as a person "could" use the full capabilities of the vehicle at any time.

That, and that they are endurance tested on their chosen lubricants, and there's no real science other than restesting on a lesser test/grade, and then I'm not really sure what that would tell you.

 

[barryh]

I think the contrast between driving in the US and Europe is being grossly exaggerated and doesn't justify different oil viscosity. My recollection of driving on the freeways in the US is that if I kept to the posted limits I was holding up the traffic which is much the same as everywhere else in the world.

The German autobahn thing is not what it was and German cars are not what they were. The days are long gone when a German car was geared so that it exceeded maximum power revs on the Autobahn the idea being that when it encountered a hill the power increased as engine revs dropped down to peak of the power curve. BMW's and MB's haven't been geared like that for 30 years.
Most cars these days will exceed any speed limit well below 3000 RPM.

 

[volodymyr]

barryh,

Originally Posted By: barryh
Most cars these days will exceed any speed limit well below 3000 RPM.


Well, I have a 6 speed manual and when I drive 120 km/h on 6th gear (at speed limit) I got more than that

I am at around 3200 RPM on my Nissan.

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
barryh,

Originally Posted By: barryh
Most cars these days will exceed any speed limit well below 3000 RPM.


Well, I have a 6 speed manual and when I drive 120 km/h on 6th gear (at speed limit) I got more than that

I am at around 3200 RPM on my Nissan.

seems to defeat the purpose of a 6th speed doesn't it ? my 80s econobox at 120 kmh is at 3600rpm in 5th gear.

 

[volodymyr]

alcyon,

I did some more precise measurements. At 120 km/h (74 mph) my engine is at 3100 RPM. Anyone wants to share their RPMs?
Originally Posted By: alcyon

seems to defeat the purpose of a 6th speed doesn't it ? my 80s econobox at 120 kmh is at 3600rpm in 5th gear.

Well, Nissan uses french gearbox in this car (made by Renault). I presume that during the design phase they were out too many times in national strikes.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
alcyon,

I did some more precise measurements. At 120 km/h (74 mph) my engine is at 3100 RPM. Anyone wants to share their RPMs?
Originally Posted By: alcyon

seems to defeat the purpose of a 6th speed doesn't it ? my 80s econobox at 120 kmh is at 3600rpm in 5th gear.

Well, Nissan uses french gearbox in this car (made by Renault). I presume that during the design phase they were out too many times in national strikes.


My 4 cyl Fusion is at 2500RPM at 72MPH. 5 sp auto.

 

[akela]

It's not only about speed (autobahn and such). When the highway goes up the mountain, and you maintain 75-80mph going uphill, for say 30-40 minutes. And the car is fully loaded.

The engine is working pretty hard in this case, deep on the right side of the tachometer.