Different countries using different viscosities

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I think there a lot of reasons. Europe has many small cars with manual transmissions and lots of drivers that think they are either Mario Andretti, or a trucker (and are in 4th by 15 mph...). Both cases need higher HTHS for protection

In North America, lots of automatic transmissions and drivers that "cruise" as a driving style. Big engines under light stress. Some will never get anywhere near redline in their entire life... So oil has a somewhat easier life.



In EU small 1.4 T-Jet (Fiat/Alfa/Lancia) engine can have as far as 190HP ( Fiat 500 Biposto)....or 160HP in its Abarth conversion.....or 120-140HP in every day daily banger (Fiat Punto).....

Same story with other downsized engines of other manufactures (VW 2.0TDI twinturbo can have as high as 240HP)

Add higher speeds here on our highways (between 140-160 km/hs in avarage)

And manual gearboxes does not represent such a big deal...because we do know what is DSG/DCT gearbox here in EU

And IF you want to joke that we are driving like a truckers.....avarage automatic gerbox shifts to soon for my opinion (at to low rpms)....

So you (americans) are those who are driving like a truckers

In other hand...in US of A you have cars with automatic gearboxes (lower rpms).....4,2L V8 engine normaly has around 200-250HP

(lower rpms again).....you are looking how to get better milage...partly because of CAFE...partly because you are driving BIG gasoline guzzlers (lower rpms again)....


So......

bottom the line...that is why we need thicker oils....

And your cars can drive away with just oily water in a crankcase

We may have water, but you have tar. LOL

Your CAFE is a joke...

Logic behind it is the same as in your food industry where you are healing your fat population with diet coke...

That is not joke anymore....I will call that BLACK HUMOUR!

 

[zeng]

+1

How true .......

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Anybody else hear some jealous nattering coming from the second and third worlds??

 

[Doublehaul]

Lol! indeed

 

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Anybody else hear some jealous nattering coming from the second and third worlds??


https://www.facebook.com/100011432745222/videos/135635486827542/

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
That is true, a lot of people short shift way too soon here, i don't get why they do it, they must think they are getting better fuel economy that way when really they're putting a massive load on the engine


I see it here too. It's like the first person to get to 4th wins a prize.



When I'm driving sedately, my manual 6 speed "skip shift" feature steers me into 4th at around 15 mph. Even my automatic waits until around 38 mph to do that....lol. So do I win a prize?

Why is that feature even on the car? I know. It's because the engineers wanted it that way...lol.

 

[FCD]

on my Ford Capri with a 4 speed manual i won't really ever use 4th around town, the only time i really use 4th is on long stretches of road or on the motorway / highway, i also let my engien rev fairly high before shifting gear, it's a carbed engine with points ignition that burns some oil so that helps to keep the carbon away specially in winter when the engine take some time to warm up , my heater won't start blowing warm air until i've driven 5 minutes or more

 

[barryh]

Talking of being advised to change up early is there an issue with modern turbo or blown petrol cars that have maximum torque from as low as 1500 RPM. One would hope the engines have been designed to take the load at those revs and that the oil pump delivers the needed pressure at those revs.

FWIW my C180K Mercedes advises that I change in to 6th gear as low as 1500 RPM but I've got to say it is reasonably smart and takes load into account so while it would do that on the flat it would not when climbing a hill.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: barryh
Talking of being advised to change up early is there an issue with modern turbo or blown petrol cars that have maximum torque from as low as 1500 RPM. One would hope the engines have been designed to take the load at those revs and that the oil pump delivers the needed pressure at those revs.


Oil pump pressure has nothing to do with how the oil lubricates in the engine. It's an artifact of the pump supplying more volume than the bearings and other components draw off.

The things that keep bearing surfaces separated are:
* relative speed (more speed, more separation);
* viscosity
* applied load.

And the resultant bearing characteristic results in it drawing more or less oil from the galleries. If the pump has more volume than that need, the pressure goes up.

So look at the factors, high load at low revs is the worst point for the oil film thickness in bearings.

That being said, the OEMs will have durability tested their engines and their lubricant recommendations for reasonable life by the average user.

If your operation is at the extreme end of the range of "normal" your durability may not be as good as the "average" user.

 

[barryh]

Thanks for that Shannow.

I wonder if the viscosity factor is perhaps one reason why very thin oils are not so popular in European cars as small capacity high torque turbo petrol engines are rapidly becoming the norm. My C180K is only a 1.6 L but it's geared at 31 MPH per 1000RPM. Ford with the Mondeo have a larger and heavier car that is powered in one of the base versions by a 1.0L turbo engine. 1000cc in such a large car seems ridiculous.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Oil pump pressure has nothing to do with how the oil lubricates in the engine. It's an artifact of the pump supplying more volume than the bearings and other components draw off.

The things that keep bearing surfaces separated are:
* relative speed (more speed, more separation);
* viscosity
* applied load.

And the resultant bearing characteristic results in it drawing more or less oil from the galleries. If the pump has more volume than that need, the pressure goes up.

So look at the factors, high load at low revs is the worst point for the oil film thickness in bearings.

That being said, the OEMs will have durability tested their engines and their lubricant recommendations for reasonable life by the average user.

If your operation is at the extreme end of the range of "normal" your durability may not be as good as the "average" user.

Average user in USA is at much lower speed than average user in German(especially on Autobahn). I'm pretty sure any engine at redline would generate a lot more heat than the same engine at half throttle. Higher oil temp needs higher viscosity.

That why German drivers should use somewhat thicker oil than US drivers.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Average user in USA is at much lower speed than average user in German(especially on Autobahn). I'm pretty sure any engine at redline would generate a lot more heat than the same engine at half throttle. Higher oil temp needs higher viscosity.

That why German drivers should use somewhat thicker oil than US drivers.


As I've posted previously, on my commute, if I leave the Caprice in "D", at around 1,800 RPM, my oil temperature immediately on stopping (type K thermocouple down the dipstick) is around 100C...same trip in "2", is around 4,000RPM, same road speed, and therefore road load, it has seen up to 135C.

revs make heat, which thins oil for sure.

 

[Dyusik]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Originally Posted By: Dyusik
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
BrocLuno,

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
No, I said some in Europe drive like closed course racers (redlines are their friends), and some drive like truckers short shifting like crazy. I never said all Europeans drive that way.


It really depends on country. I am not in EU, but still in Europe and speeding/driving aggressively is a big deal here: http://lenews.ch/2015/04/23/new-swiss-driving-rules-could-have-you-locked-up-and-deported/

So, if the speed limit is 80 km/h outside of city and you do something like 140 km/h and higher you can see some prison time. In cities rules are more strict.


I think the reference was to how much work an Opel Corsa has to do to get to the speed limit as compared to a 7.4L V8 in the US.


Bad choice of words - "work done" was the first metric of power, and BHP is derived from "work done" which is best described as Work = Force x Distance. When you consider the difference in weight between the Corsa and the Domestic, "work done" looks different.

Look here http://avstop.com/ac/apgeneral/workpowerandenergy.html



English is my second language.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Oil pump pressure has nothing to do with how the oil lubricates in the engine. It's an artifact of the pump supplying more volume than the bearings and other components draw off.

The things that keep bearing surfaces separated are:
* relative speed (more speed, more separation);
* viscosity
* applied load.

And the resultant bearing characteristic results in it drawing more or less oil from the galleries. If the pump has more volume than that need, the pressure goes up.

So look at the factors, high load at low revs is the worst point for the oil film thickness in bearings.

That being said, the OEMs will have durability tested their engines and their lubricant recommendations for reasonable life by the average user.

If your operation is at the extreme end of the range of "normal" your durability may not be as good as the "average" user.

Average user in USA is at much lower speed than average user in German(especially on Autobahn). I'm pretty sure any engine at redline would generate a lot more heat than the same engine at half throttle. Higher oil temp needs higher viscosity.

That why German drivers should use somewhat thicker oil than US drivers.


That is only one factor. Engine design , vehicle's target market also should be considered.
That is why MB, BMW, FIAT ,VW all require 5w40 or thick 5w30 in the States.

 

[SR5]

Don't forget oil change interval (OCI). If I'm changing oil every second year or 30,000 KM / 20,000 Mi then I want a large HTHS reserve and a high TBN (10 or more). Hence A3/B4 oils.

If I'm changing oil every 6 months / 10,000KM / 6,000Mi then an ILSAC oil will probably work fine.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Don't forget oil change interval (OCI). If I'm changing oil every second year or 30,000 KM / 20,000 Mi then I want a large HTHS reserve and a high TBN (10 or more). Hence A3/B4 oils.

If I'm changing oil every 6 months / 10,000KM / 6,000Mi then an ILSAC oil will probably work fine.


Yeah, I'm not sure ILSAC oil should suffice in Euro engine, even on shorter runs. Engines designed around higher dynamic viscosities' do not like altering that.

Sludge, varnish, turbo feed pipes would be my third concern. Lots of heat in these engines.

Also, European engines were designed from scratch to be in service in first world countries using top quality oils, fuels and roads. Take only one factor out of equation, like US petrol, and we get intake deposits or whatever. That problem was never as massive in Europe.

 

[chrisri]

Maybe that's why Japanese manufacturers usually are less fussy with maintenance. They sold similar cars around world, and mostly they are cheaper vehicles.

My Honda mechanic friend says for Euro cars that they are like little girls -never really sick, but always sneezing.

 

[Garak]

Yeah, I'm not sure ILSAC oil should suffice in Euro engine, even on shorter runs. Engines designed around higher dynamic viscosities' do not like altering that./quote]
It's hard to say right now, but at least at one time, the Europeans allowed for ILSAC oils. Now, the problem was that the intervals were a little optimistic, to say the least. My old Audi 200 allowed ILSAC 10w30, as one of the more preferred grades (15w-40 was the most widely specified grade based on ambients, of course). However, a 12,500 km severe service interval on conventional was asking for trouble.

Now, a more "North American" type OCI for an ILSAC grade would have likely been just fine. The previous owner followed the OEM intervals, and it looked like it inside, with coking. I had no concern about conventional in it, just at appropriate intervals. ILSAC 10w30 was fine in it, with no observed consumption. It guzzled Mobil 1 5w30, though, to the point that I only did that once.

 

[chrisri]

Back then even in Europe API standard was followed by OEMs. As you know ACEA was established by OEMs to service their needs. Europe has biggest, most diverse ,and high end car industry there is.
My 1995 car specified Api SL back then.

 

[Garak]

Yes, it was. And, that's why they went away from the API standards.

There's nothing wrong with API standards, when used as intended. And, that's where VW/Audi got themselves into trouble. Having a turbocharged car specifying SL conventional for 12,500 km severe service intervals with a basic five litre sump is a bit dodgy, to say the least. If it were run only on modern, dual rated conventional HDEOs, or even CI-4 or CI-4+, I'd have had more confidence in that, but not basic SJ/GF-2 stuff. I'd also suspect that an ILSAC rated synthetic from those days might have fared a bit better, too. The minimum spec, however, was just a little too "minimal."