Diagnostic tire changer?

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Perfect for our backyard garage
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Originally Posted by edwardh1
I think its great, what is match mounting


My take on it is that is will road-force balance the tire & wheel
 
Originally Posted by edwardh1
I think its great, what is match mounting


Matching up the heavy, or high, part of the wheel and light part or low spot of the tire so it helps offset the weight differences or run out to minimize vibration
 
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It is one step short of being impressive. It can't balance the tire/wheel. No matter how you do it, it is a PIA to index a tire. Just airing down, and back up alone eats up a lot of time. I like Corghi stuff, although Italian made and expensive. I use a 16 year old Corghi Atiglio Master tire changer and it works pretty good. Just mounted a set of 2018 ZR-1 C7 Corvette tires with it, which was at it's limit with 13 inch wide 335/25-20 run flats. The OE tires lasted 5400 miles, and are track driven. Getting them all aired up is another long story, and I wouldn't even attempt to match mount them, plus they were fine anyway. I also use a rim clamp tire changer because the Corghi can't do something like a LT 245/75-16. I also use a 12 year old Hunter Road Force balancer that checks the same things as the new Corghi. I do this all privately on peoples cars in my own garage. Locally known as "The Tire Whisperer"
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For those who don't know what this is all about:

We are all familiar with balancing a tire assembly (tire mounted on a rim). That's the result of imperfections in the mass distribution of both the wheel and/or tire.

Static balance assumes the imperfection is more or less centered laterally (inside to outside) That's probably OK for about 50% of the assemblies.

Dynamic balance locates where an off-center weight is needed so that there isn't any lateral (side to side) imbalance. The would cause a wobble.

Both of the above are mass distribution problems. But there is another problem - run out!

Well, not exactly. It's really uniformity, which is a combination of runout and variations in stiffness. Wheels only have runout, but tires have both.

If you match the low point of the wheel with the high point of the tire, you get a "rounder" assembly. (and, again, not exactly. It's actually the high point (or low point) of the first harmonic, but most everyone kind of ignores that detail.)

This is not new. 45 years ago, I saw my first machine in the tire factory that measured tire uniformity - and I don't know when car manufacturers started match mounting, but it was at least 35 years ago. But it required some sophisticated (and expensive) equipment. Needless to say, both the tire manufacturer and the wheel manufacturer had to mark their products in order to make the whole thing work.

About 25 years ago, I first became aware that Hunter Engineering had a balancer that also measured uniformity. It did so in a rather crude way, but it was the only shop level machine capable of doing so. Hunter referred to this as "Road Force" and the name has kind of stuck.

There are a number of problems with the Hunter unit - one of them being that you have to take the assembly off the balancer and back to the mounter in order to reposition the tire relative to the wheel to get a better uniformity value. This Corghi unit attempts to address that issue by having the uniformity measured at the mounter. Unfortunately - as was pointed out above - the assembly still has to go to the balancer to be balanced.

There are similar problems with the Corghi unit that the Hunter unit has - and that is the size of the measuring wheel. Because the road is flat and the measuring wheel is round, the way a tire reacts to the road isn't well simulated - and the smaller the wheel, the worse this is.

The uniformity machines in tire factories use a 30 inch diameter wheel - AND - they reject any assemblies over a certain value. That leaves only false positive tires in the mix. The theory is that the consumer will find those few false positives - and those become warranty claims, so the size of the problem can be quantified and adjusted if needed.

The early Hunter units had a 7" diameter wheel, but very quickly discovered that this wasn't good enough so they now have a 14" diameter wheel. It appears that the Corghi units are smaller than 14". And even with a 14" diameter wheel (or even a 30" diameter!) there can be false positives and false negatives (assemblies that are bad that appear OK, and vice versa.) For that reason, tire manufacturers do not accept returns based on "Road Force" values alone!

I note that in the Corghi video, they match the tire with the vale hole in the wheel. I can not emphasize this enough:

TYPICALLY WHEELS AREN'T MARKED FOR RUN OUT LOW POINT BY THE VALVE HOLE!

Some are, but typically not. And there is no way to tell without measuring the wheel. Please note: There is no harm done by doing so, but it may not be doing anything of value. If I were mounting tires, I would use the valve hole, but I would recognize the situation.

Also, many tires are NOT marked for high point. If the tire isn't marked, you can't tell where the high point is without measuring it.

In summary: Assemblies that are balanced might by out of round - and match mounting doesn't replace balancing. An assembly has to be both sort of balanced and sort of round to not have a vibration.
 
Another issue with chasing match mounting around is, with some tires you need a bent wheel to make the assembly round. Most quality wheels should be perfectly round, and close to balanced to start with. After that it all comes down to the tire itself. When watching a tire and wheel spin the balancer you can actually see with your own eyes whether it's the wheel, or tire that could be an issue. No laser measurement needed, although that would be nice to have.
The problem with these awesome new machines is, that the cashier could mount, and balance a tires. Training someone how to actually know what they are seeing, and know what to do would be much more effective, and cheaper in the long run.
 
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Originally Posted by Traction
........ Most quality wheels should be perfectly round, and close to balanced to start with. ……….


You would think that would be true, but you'd be wrong. It's amazing that they aren't. The values are small, but large enough to turn an unacceptable assembly into a better than acceptable assembly - hence the match mounting. Not to mention that some OE wheels are deliberately bored off center to create a run out low point.
 
I have had several "out of round" tires that could not be successfully match mounted, because my wheels were "too perfect" (they had too small a radial runout).
 
I don't know what the solution is, but rounder tires seems to be one thing that needs to be improved. I do see some really round tires, but the ones that aren't I wouldn't, or couldn't try to fix with an out of round wheel. And, then some tires even though round, end up not centered on the beads. I lube the cr@p out the wheel, and tire, plus air up twice, and run the bead seating procedure on the road force balancer. What can you do beyond that on a round wheel? You almost need to put a few hundred miles on them, and then recheck for free on a $15 a tire mounting job?
 
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Originally Posted by Traction
I don't know what the solution is, but rounder tires seems to be one thing that needs to be improved. I do see some really round tires, but the ones that aren't I wouldn't, or couldn't try to fix with an out of round wheel. And, then some tires even though round, end up not centered on the beads. I lube the cr@p out the wheel, and tire, plus air up twice, and run the bead seating procedure on the road force balancer. What can you do beyond that on a round wheel? You almost need to put a few hundred miles on them, and then recheck for free on a $15 a tire mounting job?


A couple of thoughts:

1) Lubing both the tire and the wheel helps a lot to improve the uniformity of the assembly. I've seen assemblies drop 10# to 12#, just by using lube.

2) It's important WHERE the lube is applied. On both bead surfaces (both tire and wheel) and on the flange OVER which the bead has to go and under the top bead. That last bit i's to prevent the flange from tearing the bead toe.

3) I always tried to GENTLY get the bead to seat - sneaking up on the pressure. Once seated, I inflated to 40 psi, then backed off to the correct pressure.

4) There are some vehicles that are incredibly sensitive. Some mid 90's Buicks and Cadillacs come to mind. Those were so sensitive that GM requested specially screened tires that could be ordered to fix the problem. Only about 4% of the tires produced were good enough!

And lastly, wheels have always been better than tires for uniformity - and I don't expect that to change. I see 3 problems for the future:

a) Vehicle engineers need to spend some time figuring out what causes vehicles to be sensitive.

b) Tires need to be made better.

c) Tire busters need to develop mounting procedures that HELP rather then hurt the process of getting the tire centered on the wheel.
 
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