Design difference between 4cyl engines from America vs Japan

My Corolla's 1.8L has 420K on it. Never been opened...I've yet to see a 4 cylinder domestic that's gone that far...

I've seen a few 2.2L GM Ecotech's have more, They were in parts delivery hot-shot HHR "Panel" vans.

There aren't ANY 4 cylinder engines I would want to drive for 400,000 miles, My 2010 2ZR-FE Corolla has 143,000 easy miles with Mobil 1 oil every 6,000 miles or so.....Never had such a noisy cold engine, Sounds like it's going to come apart on the first start after sitting more than 6 hours, Has really bad Piston Knock/Slap 'til it reaches operating temp. Neither the dealer nor corporate gave a ****. They also refused to fix the Timing Cover oil leak under warranty.
Ever since they did the Air Bag recall.....The Airbag warning lamp comes on intermittently with a driver airbag deployment loop error.

I'll never buy a new Toyota again, Dealers & Corporate alike think their products are infallible.
 
The 2.0/2.4 in the Neon , PT Cruiser, Wrangler, Grand Caravan and Liberty is a completely different engine than the "World" 2.4 that is in Mitsu, Chrysler and Hyundai products.
My 08 sonata had the 2.4 world motor that is a great engine ran like a top and was quite peppy.
 
If Ford, GM and Chrysler with all their resources tearing them down, trying to copy and compete couldn't figure it out for decades what makes you think these jokers have the answer?
 
I'm very impressed so far with the Hyundai 2.0 Nu engine in our Veloster. I did the first oil change on it recently and was amazed the amount of room and accessibility in the engine bay. It's also remarkably quiet under operating. The lack of direct injection is probably responsible, my Cruze sounds like a sewing machine on a cold start because of DI. Moved it to 5w30 as a per manual option to try to mitigate some reports of piston slap that form later.
 
If Ford, GM and Chrysler with all their resources tearing them down, trying to copy and compete couldn't figure it out for decades what makes you think these jokers have the answer?
Manufacturing. The Japanese/Koreans and Europeans depend a lot on automation, and a tenet of the Toyota Production System is that humans are the final quality check if machines are used. Workers are “empowered” to pull the andon cord to stop production if an problem happens. Toyota once claimed they(Aisin) can assemble an automatic transmission in 60 seconds with robots.

With the Americans, things have to be designed to be assembled easily by an assembly line worker. A friend is embarking on rebuilding a 4R70W on his own, I told him if it was an Aisin one from a Toyota or a Jatco from a Nissan or Subaru, it’s something I wouldn’t embark on. But, Ford designed that tranny to be assembled by a factory worker who has an high school education.

GM once dissected a Lexus LS400 to find out why it was a hit vs. Cadillac. They couldn’t replicate the production methods Toyota used - and it was assembled at the same plant alongside 4Runners and Hilux trucks.
 
A friend is embarking on rebuilding a 4R70W on his own, I told him if it was an Aisin one from a Toyota or a Jatco from a Nissan or Subaru, it’s something I wouldn’t embark on. But, Ford designed that tranny to be assembled by a factory worker who has an high school education.
lol
 
It seems that automation plays a bigger part in the production and assembly of vehicles in Japan and other countries compared to the US. Also, having a system in place that ensures that processes are done the same way every time is key.

These kinds of videos always get my attention. This is already a old video but note the lack of humans in most of the production. A lot of human interaction is checking the robot’s work.


 
Manufacturing. The Japanese/Koreans and Europeans depend a lot on automation, and a tenet of the Toyota Production System is that humans are the final quality check if machines are used. Workers are “empowered” to pull the andon cord to stop production if an problem happens. Toyota once claimed they(Aisin) can assemble an automatic transmission in 60 seconds with robots.

With the Americans, things have to be designed to be assembled easily by an assembly line worker. A friend is embarking on rebuilding a 4R70W on his own, I told him if it was an Aisin one from a Toyota or a Jatco from a Nissan or Subaru, it’s something I wouldn’t embark on. But, Ford designed that tranny to be assembled by a factory worker who has an high school education.

GM once dissected a Lexus LS400 to find out why it was a hit vs. Cadillac. They couldn’t replicate the production methods Toyota used - and it was assembled at the same plant alongside 4Runners and Hilux trucks.

I believe that may be the case for reliability but not for NHV and general refinement. If it's just that they should have nice silky smooth finished results during the developmental and prototype stages where I doubt quality control is an issue. Thru the 80s and 90s NONE of the big three could make a smooth 4 cyl to save their life while at the time I was driving an Hyundai Elantra with a Mitsubishi designed engine at the time that was so quiet and smooth people thought it had shut off when I came to a stop. It screamed effortlessly to redline while American 4cyl gave you "I should back off before something gives" NVH. My friend had a hatchback Corolla which must have had VVT cause that thing was VTEC before VTEC. If I had to speculate I'd guess The big three were just WAY behind in technology and development in tuning out inherent frequencies/resonances etc of an inline 4cyl configuration cause they could make a perfectly smooth V6, I6 and V8 and they could make the 4cyl powerful but they couldn't make them refined specifically in higher rpm.
 
I believe that may be the case for reliability but not for NHV and general refinement. If it's just that they should have nice silky smooth finished results during the developmental and prototype stages where I doubt quality control is an issue. Thru the 80s and 90s NONE of the big three could make a smooth 4 cyl to save their life while at the time I was driving an Hyundai Elantra with a Mitsubishi designed engine at the time that was so quiet and smooth people thought it had shut off when I came to a stop. It screamed effortlessly to redline while American 4cyl gave you "I should back off before something gives" NVH. My friend had a hatchback Corolla which must have had VVT cause that thing was VTEC before VTEC. If I had to speculate I'd guess The big three were just WAY behind in technology and development in tuning out inherent frequencies/resonances etc of an inline 4cyl configuration cause they could make a perfectly smooth V6, I6 and V8 and they could make the 4cyl powerful but they couldn't make them refined specifically in higher rpm.
I'd speculate that they never really tried. The Japanese were selling economy cars while the "Big 3" were invested in V8's for the most part, in cars that weren't small. Yes, there were the odd standouts like the Chrysler turbo I4 in the Daytona and Caravan and the SVO 4-cylinder Mustang and T-bird, but by and large, the focus was on the larger engines and the 4-cylinder offerings were "down market" which is where the Japanese and Korean offerings were targeting at the time.

There was a lot more margin in big cars and especially trucks. People that bought a 4-popper Mustang or Camaro weren't buying the performance version.

As to the smooth and refined comments, the 1.5L Honda 4-pot in the Civic would rev more eagerly than its GM or Ford counterparts. But the solid rocker setup that enabled that was also loud and required adjustment. It certainly didn't feel "refined".

Of course Toyota produced a whole series of 4-cylinders that would sludge up and drink oil, the latter due to the same problem GM had with the oil return holes in the pistons in the Saturn engines.

In the very early 80's Ford produced the RS200 Cosworth, which was powered by a 1.8L turbo 4-pot capable of 450HP. The 2.1L "EVO" derivative made up to 815HP. Ford wasn't short on expertise and has an impressive history of innovation in all manner of racing venues which included engines like the Indy Cammer, BOSS 429 and 427SOHC. It's not a deficit of engineering know-how, it's the lack of application of that in low margin applications.
 
It seems that automation plays a bigger part in the production and assembly of vehicles in Japan and other countries compared to the US. Also, having a system in place that ensures that processes are done the same way every time is key.

These kinds of videos always get my attention. This is already a old video but note the lack of humans in most of the production. A lot of human interaction is checking the robot’s work.



There are exceptions to the rule - the Lexus LFA being one of them - made to order and much more human interaction but there’s still machines and robots involved. The 1st generation Mirai was built at the same skunk works Toyota used to build the LFA but being Prius based - not using a bespoke carbon fiber chassis. Also, some machines play music while a procedure is being done.

 
Yes, there were the odd standouts like the Chrysler turbo I4 in the Daytona and Caravan and the SVO 4-cylinder Mustang and T-bird, but by and large, the focus was on the larger engines and the 4-cylinder offerings were "down market" which is where the Japanese and Korean offerings were targeting at the time.

It's not a deficit of engineering know-how, it's the lack of application of that in low margin applications.
I remember seeing the Dodge Daytona and Turbo Caravan as a kid. Didn’t Chrysler also have the Omni GLH, their answer to the VW GTI?

I think when the K-Cars came out that saved Chrysler from a certain demise in the 1980s, they depended on a relationship with Mitsubishi that was formed in the 1970s and used that for engine supply. I recall seeing the old Chrysler I-4 that was offered next to the 2.6L Mitsu engine. And again for the K-Car based minivans - before Chrysler developed their own 3.3/3.8L V6, the Mitsu 3.0L V6 was offered. Ford did use their European arm for some of their R&D, which led them to the first modern OHC V8 by an American brand(yes, I know about the GM/OMC DOHC 350) as well as the Ecoboost engines.

Like Detroit’s focus in the 1960s was muscle cars and luxo barges despite an oil crisis in the 1970s, trucks and SUVs bring in the money for them despite tightening regulations. Compact cars were a loss leader for them in the 1970s, and if it wasn’t for rental fleets, they’d axe their sedans sooner in modern times. I remember seeing GM/Chrysler ads from Nat Geos and Popular Mechanics from the 1980s trying to sell a value proposition against Japanese cars - but Toyota started going a little more upmarket with the Cressida/Supra but those were sixes. Nissan was proud of the Z car then as well.

But maybe the move to EVs might be “have your cake and eat it too” moment if the performance figures for the new GMC Hummer/F-150 Lightning/Silverado EV and the future Dodge electric car are as hyped up as they are?
 
I've seen a few 2.2L GM Ecotech's have more, They were in parts delivery hot-shot HHR "Panel" vans.

There aren't ANY 4 cylinder engines I would want to drive for 400,000 miles, My 2010 2ZR-FE Corolla has 143,000 easy miles with Mobil 1 oil every 6,000 miles or so.....Never had such a noisy cold engine, Sounds like it's going to come apart on the first start after sitting more than 6 hours, Has really bad Piston Knock/Slap 'til it reaches operating temp. Neither the dealer nor corporate gave a ****. They also refused to fix the Timing Cover oil leak under warranty.
Ever since they did the Air Bag recall.....The Airbag warning lamp comes on intermittently with a driver airbag deployment loop error.

I'll never buy a new Toyota again, Dealers & Corporate alike think their products are infallible.
Neither would I, Toyota builds garbage...:oops:...Maybe you should buy a Mitsubishi, I've heard they're the best vehicles made...:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
I remember seeing the Dodge Daytona and Turbo Caravan as a kid. Didn’t Chrysler also have the Omni GLH, their answer to the VW GTI?
Yes, that's right, they did also do the Omni, think it was the same engine as was in the Daytona. Kind of like how they are currently shoehorning the 6.4L into everything.
I think when the K-Cars came out that saved Chrysler from a certain demise in the 1980s, they depended on a relationship with Mitsubishi that was formed in the 1970s and used that for engine supply. I recall seeing the old Chrysler I-4 that was offered next to the 2.6L Mitsu engine. And again for the K-Car based minivans - before Chrysler developed their own 3.3/3.8L V6, the Mitsu 3.0L V6 was offered.
Yes, the Mitsubishi partnership was interesting. The Mitsu V6's had a tendency to burn oil like crazy (valve guide/seal problem) which the Chrysler engines, which were less refined/more basic, didn't. There was a time period where you were almost guaranteed to see a Chrysler minivan fogging blue when you were out and about.
Ford did use their European arm for some of their R&D, which led them to the first modern OHC V8 by an American brand(yes, I know about the GM/OMC DOHC 350) as well as the Ecoboost engines.
Guess on how you define "modern". Ford had built a hot valley (used with and without a turbo) DOHC Windsor in the 1960's affectionately called the "Indy Cammer":
6b2d87634243a75c856862add756c163.jpg


I don't believe there was any European basis for the Modular family, it was originally slated to be a 4" bore engine called "Hurricane" that was loosely based on the historic 427SOHC:
427.jpg


However, the large bore version wouldn't fit in FWD applications and since Ford had plans for an FWD V8 (the Continental) compromises were made and the bores were shrunk, which is how we ended up with the 4.6L V8. A tall deck version was of course also produced (the 5.4L) similar to the 302/351W relationship that had proceeded it.

Hurricane wasn't abandoned however and eventually made its way into production as the 6.2L (BOSS) engine in the Raptor and eventually the Super Duty trucks until it was replaced by the 7.3L Godzilla pushrod engine.
Like Detroit’s focus in the 1960s was muscle cars and luxo barges despite an oil crisis in the 1970s, trucks and SUVs bring in the money for them despite tightening regulations. Compact cars were a loss leader for them in the 1970s, and if it wasn’t for rental fleets, they’d axe their sedans sooner in modern times. I remember seeing GM/Chrysler ads from Nat Geos and Popular Mechanics from the 1980s trying to sell a value proposition against Japanese cars - but Toyota started going a little more upmarket with the Cressida/Supra but those were sixes. Nissan was proud of the Z car then as well.
Yup, exactly.
But maybe the move to EVs might be “have your cake and eat it too” moment if the performance figures for the new GMC Hummer/F-150 Lightning/Silverado EV and the future Dodge electric car are as hyped up as they are?
That's something that will be interesting to watch for sure. Ford is already doing extremely well with the Mach-E, the GT and GT performance versions are really hot! An extremely good first effort by Ford.
 
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