Demystify winter tires
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If you are not going to use studs, I'd suggest skipping the studable tires. They usually cost more, so what's the point?
I've always wanted to see a test (with real data) that compared studable tires without studs, to a standard studless tire. My guess it the studless will do better, as it's desinged with that one purpose.
It appears to me that the Continental ExtremeWinterContact sold in the US is the same as the Continental ContiVikingContact 5 which is sold in Europe. The ContiVikingContact 5 has gotten very good reviews over the past couple years.
I wouldn't count out the WS-60 at all. I've owned the Blizzak WS-50 for three years and now the WS-60 is starting it's third. The WS-60 is a VASTLY better pavement tire than the WS-50, which was known to be just terrible. It's also noticeably better on ice, and maybe about the same on snow. The stability on loose snow is improved significantly over the WS-50. My guess is that's due to the directional design of the WS-60.
I'm a HUGE fan of winter tires, and research them a lot. I'd personally go for the Continental ExtremeWinterContact over the Blizzak WS-60, based on the foreign reviews of the ContiVikingContact 5 (assuming they are the same tire). And secondly because they are cheaper than the WS-60.
The Michelin X-Ice Xi2 appears to be the best right now, but you definitely will pay more. For a budget tire, the General Alitmax Arctic seems great as it's so cheap. Running it studless though you most likely will not be able to "compete" with the newest studless tires.
Even the new Dunlop Grapsic 3 would be a good choice for the money. The Graspic 2 it think got a new rubber compound late it's the product life which made it better tire according to the Tire Rack.
I think the bottom line though is that ANY modern winter tire will not let you down or disappoint you. They are so much better than a plain-old all-season in the snow/ice. I honestly would NEVER use an all-season tire again in here in Minnesota. I just love them. Good Luck!
I've always wanted to see a test (with real data) that compared studable tires without studs, to a standard studless tire. My guess it the studless will do better, as it's desinged with that one purpose.
It appears to me that the Continental ExtremeWinterContact sold in the US is the same as the Continental ContiVikingContact 5 which is sold in Europe. The ContiVikingContact 5 has gotten very good reviews over the past couple years.
I wouldn't count out the WS-60 at all. I've owned the Blizzak WS-50 for three years and now the WS-60 is starting it's third. The WS-60 is a VASTLY better pavement tire than the WS-50, which was known to be just terrible. It's also noticeably better on ice, and maybe about the same on snow. The stability on loose snow is improved significantly over the WS-50. My guess is that's due to the directional design of the WS-60.
I'm a HUGE fan of winter tires, and research them a lot. I'd personally go for the Continental ExtremeWinterContact over the Blizzak WS-60, based on the foreign reviews of the ContiVikingContact 5 (assuming they are the same tire). And secondly because they are cheaper than the WS-60.
The Michelin X-Ice Xi2 appears to be the best right now, but you definitely will pay more. For a budget tire, the General Alitmax Arctic seems great as it's so cheap. Running it studless though you most likely will not be able to "compete" with the newest studless tires.
Even the new Dunlop Grapsic 3 would be a good choice for the money. The Graspic 2 it think got a new rubber compound late it's the product life which made it better tire according to the Tire Rack.
I think the bottom line though is that ANY modern winter tire will not let you down or disappoint you. They are so much better than a plain-old all-season in the snow/ice. I honestly would NEVER use an all-season tire again in here in Minnesota. I just love them. Good Luck!
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Originally Posted By: SubLGT
http://www.naf.no/Forbrukertester/Dekk/Dekktester/Vinterdekktest-2009/
Thanks for the good link! Thanks to Craig as well for the one click translation.
Three of my buddies are running the studded Hankook IPikes, so they'll certainly be interested in seeing that test.
It looks like the Goodyear Nordic has been replaced by the Ultra Grip Extreme in Europe. We get the old stock in Canada.
http://www.naf.no/Forbrukertester/Dekk/Dekktester/Vinterdekktest-2009/
Thanks for the good link! Thanks to Craig as well for the one click translation.
Three of my buddies are running the studded Hankook IPikes, so they'll certainly be interested in seeing that test.
It looks like the Goodyear Nordic has been replaced by the Ultra Grip Extreme in Europe. We get the old stock in Canada.
I did some research earlier this month on the Forester and Outback forums, one tire that was not mentioned here, that was highly regarded on the Subaru forums, was the W409 Hankook studdable snow tire. I bought a set of these (studded) for my wife's Forester FXT. I have not even placed them on the car yet, so I have no direct experience. But their reviews on the forums indicates they are a very good choice.
I also own a set of studded Cooper WinterMaster ST2s for my Outback, they get the job done. I have about 5k on them and they look new. However, this makes the second set of Coopers (this set of wintermaster ST2s and a set of Cooper "M&S" truck snow tires), and both were "lumpy" for lack of a better term...never did get the M&S balanced out, and the Wintermasters are going in next week for a rebalance, and possible repalcement if that doesn't cure it.
One thing with studs, they do increase your dry braking distance since the studs tend to slide along the pavement. Ice is s different story, a studless snow will not stop nearly as fast as a studded tire. You can even see this in Tire Rack's snow tire comparison.
If you get accustom to studs, you will never want anything else in winter...traction in ice and snow is second to none.
I also own a set of studded Cooper WinterMaster ST2s for my Outback, they get the job done. I have about 5k on them and they look new. However, this makes the second set of Coopers (this set of wintermaster ST2s and a set of Cooper "M&S" truck snow tires), and both were "lumpy" for lack of a better term...never did get the M&S balanced out, and the Wintermasters are going in next week for a rebalance, and possible repalcement if that doesn't cure it.
One thing with studs, they do increase your dry braking distance since the studs tend to slide along the pavement. Ice is s different story, a studless snow will not stop nearly as fast as a studded tire. You can even see this in Tire Rack's snow tire comparison.
If you get accustom to studs, you will never want anything else in winter...traction in ice and snow is second to none.
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
One thing with studs, they do increase your dry braking distance since the studs tend to slide along the pavement.
People keep generalizing and saying this but the folks from Norway and Sweden disagree, and rate studded Hakka 5s very close to the top with less than a 1ft difference in dry asphalt braking compared to the top performance, studless snow tire.
Perhaps some "lower end" studded tires without some of the Nordic engineering into stud mounting still compromise dry braking but in my research this fall I can say that it certainly isn't a universal truth.
One thing with studs, they do increase your dry braking distance since the studs tend to slide along the pavement.
People keep generalizing and saying this but the folks from Norway and Sweden disagree, and rate studded Hakka 5s very close to the top with less than a 1ft difference in dry asphalt braking compared to the top performance, studless snow tire.
Perhaps some "lower end" studded tires without some of the Nordic engineering into stud mounting still compromise dry braking but in my research this fall I can say that it certainly isn't a universal truth.
Deeter, don't assume that the lumpy ride is balance. It can be a bent wheel, an out-of-round tire, or a tire with road force variations--stiffer sidewalls on one part and softer on another. This can somewhat be accounted for in a shop that uses a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force balancer and a tech that knows what the heck he's doing with it. No wheel is perfectly circular. The stiff part of the tire is matched to the low part of the wheel, and that is a big help. Or, the out-of-round low part of the tire is matched to the high part of the wheel. Or, the tire is impossible and sent back to the manufacturer for "adjustment" and you get a new tire.
I like the Hankook studded tires. Good results here on my Volvo. I don't think modern studded tires skid on the dry or wet the way older ones did, but it sure tears up any winter tire to skid them on pavement.
I like the Hankook studded tires. Good results here on my Volvo. I don't think modern studded tires skid on the dry or wet the way older ones did, but it sure tears up any winter tire to skid them on pavement.
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
One thing with studs, they do increase your dry braking distance since the studs tend to slide along the pavement.
People keep generalizing and saying this but the folks from Norway and Sweden disagree, and rate studded Hakka 5s very close to the top with less than a 1ft difference in dry asphalt braking compared to the top performance, studless snow tire.
Perhaps some "lower end" studded tires without some of the Nordic engineering into stud mounting still compromise dry braking but in my research this fall I can say that it certainly isn't a universal truth.
One hard-to-find tire? Out of how many much more common studded sold in the US? Yes, I researched for the "elite" Nordic snow tires, and not one store within 50 miles of me sold them...I wanted to try a set on the Forester.
My "generic" statement is generally true of the general run-of-the-mill studded tire typically sold in the US.
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
One thing with studs, they do increase your dry braking distance since the studs tend to slide along the pavement.
People keep generalizing and saying this but the folks from Norway and Sweden disagree, and rate studded Hakka 5s very close to the top with less than a 1ft difference in dry asphalt braking compared to the top performance, studless snow tire.
Perhaps some "lower end" studded tires without some of the Nordic engineering into stud mounting still compromise dry braking but in my research this fall I can say that it certainly isn't a universal truth.
One hard-to-find tire? Out of how many much more common studded sold in the US? Yes, I researched for the "elite" Nordic snow tires, and not one store within 50 miles of me sold them...I wanted to try a set on the Forester.
My "generic" statement is generally true of the general run-of-the-mill studded tire typically sold in the US.
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Deeter, don't assume that the lumpy ride is balance. It can be a bent wheel, an out-of-round tire, or a tire with road force variations--stiffer sidewalls on one part and softer on another. This can somewhat be accounted for in a shop that uses a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force balancer and a tech that knows what the heck he's doing with it. No wheel is perfectly circular. The stiff part of the tire is matched to the low part of the wheel, and that is a big help. Or, the out-of-round low part of the tire is matched to the high part of the wheel. Or, the tire is impossible and sent back to the manufacturer for "adjustment" and you get a new tire.
I'm fully aware of that, the reason I said they may be replacing them...I know the wheels are straight, its got to be in the tire. And since it is consistent (not at a single speed), its most likely a defective tire.
I just found it funny to have happened to the two sets of Cooper winter tires I have bought!
Deeter, don't assume that the lumpy ride is balance. It can be a bent wheel, an out-of-round tire, or a tire with road force variations--stiffer sidewalls on one part and softer on another. This can somewhat be accounted for in a shop that uses a Hunter GSP9700 Road Force balancer and a tech that knows what the heck he's doing with it. No wheel is perfectly circular. The stiff part of the tire is matched to the low part of the wheel, and that is a big help. Or, the out-of-round low part of the tire is matched to the high part of the wheel. Or, the tire is impossible and sent back to the manufacturer for "adjustment" and you get a new tire.
I'm fully aware of that, the reason I said they may be replacing them...I know the wheels are straight, its got to be in the tire. And since it is consistent (not at a single speed), its most likely a defective tire.
I just found it funny to have happened to the two sets of Cooper winter tires I have bought!
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
One hard-to-find tire? Out of how many much more common studded sold in the US? Yes, I researched for the "elite" Nordic snow tires, and not one store within 50 miles of me sold them...I wanted to try a set on the Forester.
My "generic" statement is generally true of the general run-of-the-mill studded tire typically sold in the US.
Oh please.
All of the decent studded snows performed in the dry braking test intermingled with the studless top performers. The Hakka 5 wasn't the only studded tire hanging with the boys at the top of the heap in dry braking. It's also worth mentioning that those same tires that topped dry braking took significantly farther to stop in winter conditions while the Hakkas and other Nordic studded tires were STILL on top. The #1 dry tire took 2 or 3 times the distance to stop on ice.
That's quite a penalty to pay for a 1 ft improvement in the dry (if all you're comparing is braking - obviously the high perf snow is going to handle better too but that's not what you referenced).
The discussion also isn't about how close a Nokian or Gislaved dealer is to your residence, it's about the claim that studs universally impair dry braking.
One hard-to-find tire? Out of how many much more common studded sold in the US? Yes, I researched for the "elite" Nordic snow tires, and not one store within 50 miles of me sold them...I wanted to try a set on the Forester.
My "generic" statement is generally true of the general run-of-the-mill studded tire typically sold in the US.
Oh please.
All of the decent studded snows performed in the dry braking test intermingled with the studless top performers. The Hakka 5 wasn't the only studded tire hanging with the boys at the top of the heap in dry braking. It's also worth mentioning that those same tires that topped dry braking took significantly farther to stop in winter conditions while the Hakkas and other Nordic studded tires were STILL on top. The #1 dry tire took 2 or 3 times the distance to stop on ice.
That's quite a penalty to pay for a 1 ft improvement in the dry (if all you're comparing is braking - obviously the high perf snow is going to handle better too but that's not what you referenced).
The discussion also isn't about how close a Nokian or Gislaved dealer is to your residence, it's about the claim that studs universally impair dry braking.
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
I did some research earlier this month on the Forester and Outback forums, one tire that was not mentioned here, that was highly regarded on the Subaru forums, was the W409 Hankook studdable snow tire. I bought a set of these (studded) for my wife's Forester FXT. I have not even placed them on the car yet, so I have no direct experience. But their reviews on the forums indicates they are a very good choice.
The W409 is the I*Pike in the Scandinavian tire test link.
I did some research earlier this month on the Forester and Outback forums, one tire that was not mentioned here, that was highly regarded on the Subaru forums, was the W409 Hankook studdable snow tire. I bought a set of these (studded) for my wife's Forester FXT. I have not even placed them on the car yet, so I have no direct experience. But their reviews on the forums indicates they are a very good choice.
The W409 is the I*Pike in the Scandinavian tire test link.
Originally Posted By: rpn453
.....Tirerack is a great resource, and I wish Tirerack would do some more testing on studded tires. They sell better studded tires than the Firestone Winterforce: the General Altimax Arctic, the Pirelli Winter Carving, and the Goodyear Ultra Grip. I'd like to see them test those against some non-studded tires, on both wet and dry ice. I'd also like to see them compare the same tires both studded and non-studded, as I haven't seen anyone do that yet.............
tirerack has tested studded and non-studded Altimax Arctic:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=123&
.....Tirerack is a great resource, and I wish Tirerack would do some more testing on studded tires. They sell better studded tires than the Firestone Winterforce: the General Altimax Arctic, the Pirelli Winter Carving, and the Goodyear Ultra Grip. I'd like to see them test those against some non-studded tires, on both wet and dry ice. I'd also like to see them compare the same tires both studded and non-studded, as I haven't seen anyone do that yet.............
tirerack has tested studded and non-studded Altimax Arctic:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=123&
interesting that the Continental tires in both the studdable snow tire test & studless snow tire test outperformed their competition they tested.
...yes, not a typo, General is owned by Continental, and the Altimax Arctic is an old Gislaved tire, which Continental also owns....
...yes, not a typo, General is owned by Continental, and the Altimax Arctic is an old Gislaved tire, which Continental also owns....
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Originally Posted By: rpn453
.....Tirerack is a great resource, and I wish Tirerack would do some more testing on studded tires. They sell better studded tires than the Firestone Winterforce: the General Altimax Arctic, the Pirelli Winter Carving, and the Goodyear Ultra Grip. I'd like to see them test those against some non-studded tires, on both wet and dry ice. I'd also like to see them compare the same tires both studded and non-studded, as I haven't seen anyone do that yet.............
tirerack has tested studded and non-studded Altimax Arctic:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=123&
That's a new one! Good stuff, though it is lacking in tire selection, as they didn't test any of the studless designs against the Altimax.
Originally Posted By: rpn453
.....Tirerack is a great resource, and I wish Tirerack would do some more testing on studded tires. They sell better studded tires than the Firestone Winterforce: the General Altimax Arctic, the Pirelli Winter Carving, and the Goodyear Ultra Grip. I'd like to see them test those against some non-studded tires, on both wet and dry ice. I'd also like to see them compare the same tires both studded and non-studded, as I haven't seen anyone do that yet.............
tirerack has tested studded and non-studded Altimax Arctic:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=123&
That's a new one! Good stuff, though it is lacking in tire selection, as they didn't test any of the studless designs against the Altimax.
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
tirerack has tested studded and non-studded Altimax Arctic:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=123&
Interesting stuff regarding studded verses same tire without studs:
6% reduction in dry braking with studs
34% improvement in ice braking with studs
I will gladly give up a little bit of dry traction to gain this much ice traction.
I can't wait for some winter weather to try my brand new studded snow tires but it has been warm and sunny ever since I put them on about 3 weeks ago.
tirerack has tested studded and non-studded Altimax Arctic:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=123&
Interesting stuff regarding studded verses same tire without studs:
6% reduction in dry braking with studs
34% improvement in ice braking with studs
I will gladly give up a little bit of dry traction to gain this much ice traction.
I can't wait for some winter weather to try my brand new studded snow tires but it has been warm and sunny ever since I put them on about 3 weeks ago.
I'm a big fan of the Blizzack/ws-60/Winter Dueller tires. I have 2 for each of our 3 vehicles. I know they push the 4 but 2 on the drive wheels & good all seasons on the other with careful driving go a long way. I have some extra rims for 2 so I can put them on myself at the right time.
Originally Posted By: Mr_Joe
I'm a big fan of the Blizzack/ws-60/Winter Dueller tires. I have 2 for each of our 3 vehicles. I know they push the 4 but 2 on the drive wheels & good all seasons on the other with careful driving go a long way. I have some extra rims for 2 so I can put them on myself at the right time.
The problem is careful driving is not always possible and skids or accident avoidence happens. If RWD I would not worry much about Blizzacks and all-seasons. However FWD you will find yourself loosing control on slippery stuff when the rear end swings completely around. I once was a believer in winter tires on front only until two spin outs
Before that I had 8 years winter experience with all-seasons on all four tires and no spin outs.
I'm a big fan of the Blizzack/ws-60/Winter Dueller tires. I have 2 for each of our 3 vehicles. I know they push the 4 but 2 on the drive wheels & good all seasons on the other with careful driving go a long way. I have some extra rims for 2 so I can put them on myself at the right time.
The problem is careful driving is not always possible and skids or accident avoidence happens. If RWD I would not worry much about Blizzacks and all-seasons. However FWD you will find yourself loosing control on slippery stuff when the rear end swings completely around. I once was a believer in winter tires on front only until two spin outs
Before that I had 8 years winter experience with all-seasons on all four tires and no spin outs.Does anyone know if the General (Continental) Arctic Altimax is made in the U.S., or Europe, or Korea?
They sure look 99% like the Hankook I*Pike W409. Continental is making some motorcycle tires in Korea...just wondering if there's a link up between Continental and Hankook?
They sure look 99% like the Hankook I*Pike W409. Continental is making some motorcycle tires in Korea...just wondering if there's a link up between Continental and Hankook?
Originally Posted By: Ken2
Does anyone know if the General (Continental) Arctic Altimax is made in the U.S., or Europe, or Korea?
Depending on specific size, they are made either in Germany or in the US:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=General&model=Altimax+Arctic&tirePageLocQty=
Quote:
They sure look 99% like the Hankook I*Pike W409.
They are actually a copy of Gislaved Nordfrost 3 available and quite popular in Europe.
Does anyone know if the General (Continental) Arctic Altimax is made in the U.S., or Europe, or Korea?
Depending on specific size, they are made either in Germany or in the US:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=General&model=Altimax+Arctic&tirePageLocQty=
Quote:
They sure look 99% like the Hankook I*Pike W409.
They are actually a copy of Gislaved Nordfrost 3 available and quite popular in Europe.
Tirerack has posted a snow test of five UHP all-season tires. The Conti Extreme Contact DWS was the winner on snow.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=124&
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=124&
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