Delvac Elite 10W30 21,900 miles Volvo D13

[userfriendly]

Everything that I have read about engine oil in OTR applications, state that once an oil is up to temperature, the grade and not the W number determines fuel economy. Now we read that it has more to do with HTHS than grade. My asking DR about his warm-up ritual was to do with fuel economy and engine wear during the 1st few minutes of operation. Based on his answer, I don't think chasing a low W number will yield fuel economy benefits with the 30 grades, but 5W40 instead of 15W40 might. Fuel rewards do not apply to me, but can mean free engine oil for DR. Something to consider. Everything being equal, and the fact that the truck in discussion has 5W30 approval, would I be out of line thinking that 0W40 CJ-4 just might be the best engine oil on the shelf? If it shears down to 30 something, so what? If it loses a winter grade, it will still pass 5W. If at least two of the big players went to the expense of certifying their 0W40 hdeo for CJ-4, maybe they know something we don't.

 

[Garak]

Except, remember, that within a grade and a spec, HTHS is probably going to be identical. All 5w-30 ILSAC lubes will have an HTHS of about 3.1 +/- about 0.1. And, usually when switching a grade, there will be a different HTHS. Of course, there are exceptions on both ends.

The stay in grade stuff for the HDEOs under the ACEA umbrella are strict enough.

 

[userfriendly]

Good point. If I remember correctly the stay in grade rules for 0W40 is tough, and is maybe why the SAE40 grade has/had two HTHS minimums. That should throw out the "if it shears down anyway" argument for not using 0W40. Arguably too, the most discussed grade on earth. Fuel economy 15W40 vs. 0W40, what say you?

 

[dustyroads]

You guys are far more technical than I'll ever be. After years (decades, actually) of running 15W40 all year round, I'm fine with 10W30 in winter.

With 15W40, winter time uoa's often showed chromium (that normally wasn't there) and more iron than otherwise seen. I'll be interested to see how 5W40 reports this winter.

The 5W40 should help in fuel economy in the uber cold, but I'll never be able to say how much. I honestly don't feel a need for 0W40 in my own use.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
If I remember correctly the stay in grade rules for 0W40 is tough, and is maybe why the SAE40 grade has/had two HTHS minimums. That should throw out the "if it shears down anyway" argument for not using 0W40.

There are the two HTHS minimums, for sure, but I was thinking more the ACEA specifications. And, that's why I would wonder about some 0w-40 HDEO options. It's probably just me being OCD, but the 0w-40 HDEOs usually don't meet the same ACEA E7, E9 specifications, with the more rigorous stay in grade rules.

Now, considering that ACEA stuff is self-certified, it makes me wonder. Is it just because of the lower TBN often observed in the 0w-40 HDEOs that the oil companies don't list E7, E9? Or, is it something else, like shear resistance. Or, do various OEMs not want to consider HDEOs, and then we have the lack of builder approvals, too?

I do know that the 15w-40s, 5w-40s, and the newest 5w-30s have the most builder approvals (and ACEA specifications), with the 5w-40s having more than the 15w-40s, and with Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 having just about the most of any oil out there, with an extra approval or two above and beyond even Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40.

Of course, with unaided starts, running a diesel in this province, I'd certainly have to weigh my options carefully. And, we just don't have a pile of 0w-40 HDEO UOAs here in OTR applications (or even light duty diesel trucks) to see how they're faring for shear, or even TBN retention.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dustyroads
You guys are far more technical than I'll ever be. After years (decades, actually) of running 15W40 all year round, I'm fine with 10W30 in winter.

Yes, we took your thread as an opportunity to go on a big tangent. And, you're quite right. 10w-30 works in the winters, even up here. It's not the best, but it's certainly not an SAE 30, either. And for fuel economy, sure, differences are there, but trying to actually pin them down is another ball game.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
You guys are far more technical than I'll ever be. After years (decades, actually) of running 15W40 all year round, I'm fine with 10W30 in winter.

Yes, we took your thread as an opportunity to go on a big tangent. And, you're quite right. 10w-30 works in the winters, even up here. It's not the best, but it's certainly not an SAE 30, either. And for fuel economy, sure, differences are there, but trying to actually pin them down is another ball game.


Don't let me derail the conversation

, what I meant was you're (userfriendly, Garak) much more educated on the technicalities than I'll ever be. I pick up pieces of info from posts like yours and I appreciate the chance to do so. You guys are far ahead of me in everything.

So if I start up my truck at -10F after being shut down for 10-12 hours (as in an OTR application), will a 5W40 or even a 0W40 be very beneficial in either cranking or warm up time fuel usage (compared to 10W30)?

If shut down at home, and the weather has been -10F or less for days at a time, I certainly would prefer the 0W/5W, but what about an OTR guy stopping for a night (or day)? Wouldn't a 10W30 be about as good for cranking and then warming up (talking gallons of fuel per hour)?

I don't have a grasp of ACEA specs either, other than E9 being similar to CJ-4. I know Garak is up on the ACEA testing. Are 5W40 oils superior to 10W30 oils in meeting their requirements (still talking HDEO)? Or maybe I should ask if 5W40 oils in general have more approvals over 10W30's?

I just woke up, sorry if I'm incoherent.

Edit:I used 10-12 hours of engine off time as an OTR truck example, but it seems like a typical scenario for the diesel pickup truck guys going to and from work or job sites, too.

 

[dustyroads]

Also, when I idle overnight in ambient temps of around -30F, my oil temps can drop as low as 185-190F. Wouldn't a 10W30 pump easier than a 0W/5W-40?

5W30 would be better yet, but up front cost of 5W30 is far above a 10W30 blend.

 

[userfriendly]

DR; I'm guilty of posting other peoples work. Shannow is best qualified to answer your fluidity questions. Garak is very good with certifications and application. I believe myself to be mechanically intrinsic.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I don't have a grasp of ACEA specs either, other than E9 being similar to CJ-4. I know Garak is up on the ACEA testing. Are 5W40 oils superior to 10W30 oils in meeting their requirements (still talking HDEO)? Or maybe I should ask if 5W40 oils in general have more approvals over 10W30's?

There are others better with flow than I am; I am good at remembering specifications.

When it comes to fuel economy, you'd probably lose a bit during warmup with the 10w-30 over the 5w-40, but gain it back in the highway running, depending upon how far apart the HTHS is. It's really hard to nail the benefits down accurately outside a lab. However, you can be rest assured that a higher VI will help fuel economy during warmup, and a lower HTHS will help fuel economy during running. That is a big attraction for 10w-30 lubes, since they can gain you some fuel economy without blowing your lubricant budget out of the water, assuming you don't extend OCIs. As for starting, at your -10 F example, I'd want a 10w-30, at the minimum.

10w-30 lubricants can meet E7, E9, and Mobil Delvac Elite 10w-30 certainly does. How superior they are to meeting these specifications is anyone's guess; a formulator might know. ACEA specifications are self-certifying and most are pass/fail. I doubt that Imperial Oil would give me any results on one oil, let alone let me compare one of theirs to another, assuming both were certified.

You will tend to find more builder approvals on a 5w-40 than a 10w-30, at least if you look at the right ones, but you're not going to find a shortage of certifications when it comes to 5w-40, 5w-30, 10w-30, or 15w-40 HDEOs. And yes, a 5w-30 HDEO can do some amazing things. But, one has to extend the OCIs to make them worth it.

If you want to see some extended OCIs in trucking, look for Doug Hillary's threads in this section. He had OCIs roughly four times the length of what you just did.

Maybe he'll see this thread and give us a bit of a history lesson as to his experiences.

 

[userfriendly]

The fact that the engine oil temperatures are higher than on older models, and 10W30 is an approved grade, what would prevent that engine from operating with XW20 engine oil and lower sump temperature? If we look at temperature rise across a bearing, how much cooler would a XW20 engine oil need to be and still provide the same hydrodynamic protection of an XW30?
The second part of this question; Would lower KV100 of an XW20 (in addition to hths) provide an improvement in fuel economy and/or cause oil consumption? If a portion of that consumption occurred in the air pump, would down stream oil in the brake lines cause problems?
Edit; I may not have all the answers, but I have most of the questions perfected.

 

[Garak]

At that point, I'd begin to worry about HTHS. However, the future specification will have a split that will include some much lower HTHS lubes, but they are expected to be used in appropriate technology only. Shannow might have the bearing answers.

Of course, the move to the lighter HDEOs is in pursuit of fuel economy, which is always important in fleet use.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Also, when I idle overnight in ambient temps of around -30F, my oil temps can drop as low as 185-190F. Wouldn't a 10W30 pump easier than a 0W/5W-40?

5W30 would be better yet, but up front cost of 5W30 is far above a 10W30 blend.


The "pumping" that's referred to a lot is only 10s of watts between oil pump relief open and oil pump relief closed.

It's the friction in the bearing surfaces that's the big power waster, but necessary evil (think lift/drag in aircraft...can't have one without the other).

At your 185-190, the 10W30 will have lower drag than any of the 40s.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I don't have a grasp of ACEA specs either, other than E9 being similar to CJ-4. I know Garak is up on the ACEA testing. Are 5W40 oils superior to 10W30 oils in meeting their requirements (still talking HDEO)? Or maybe I should ask if 5W40 oils in general have more approvals over 10W30's?

There are others better with flow than I am; I am good at remembering specifications.

When it comes to fuel economy, you'd probably lose a bit during warmup with the 10w-30 over the 5w-40, but gain it back in the highway running, depending upon how far apart the HTHS is. It's really hard to nail the benefits down accurately outside a lab. However, you can be rest assured that a higher VI will help fuel economy during warmup, and a lower HTHS will help fuel economy during running. That is a big attraction for 10w-30 lubes, since they can gain you some fuel economy without blowing your lubricant budget out of the water, assuming you don't extend OCIs. As for starting, at your -10 F example, I'd want a 10w-30, at the minimum.

10w-30 lubricants can meet E7, E9, and Mobil Delvac Elite 10w-30 certainly does. How superior they are to meeting these specifications is anyone's guess; a formulator might know. ACEA specifications are self-certifying and most are pass/fail. I doubt that Imperial Oil would give me any results on one oil, let alone let me compare one of theirs to another, assuming both were certified.

You will tend to find more builder approvals on a 5w-40 than a 10w-30, at least if you look at the right ones, but you're not going to find a shortage of certifications when it comes to 5w-40, 5w-30, 10w-30, or 15w-40 HDEOs. And yes, a 5w-30 HDEO can do some amazing things. But, one has to extend the OCIs to make them worth it.

If you want to see some extended OCIs in trucking, look for Doug Hillary's threads in this section. He had OCIs roughly four times the length of what you just did.

Maybe he'll see this thread and give us a bit of a history lesson as to his experiences.


Thanks Garak. These days I mostly get oil changes on the road and as I mentioned before the syn blends are an extra $50 over a bulk 15W40, but T6 and either of the Delvac 1 oils add $150 to the base price. It's not insurmountable, just run it longer and it'll pay for itself. I just don't want to run that long yet, especially with the possibility of cam failure and a possible dispute in warranty claims.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
Also, when I idle overnight in ambient temps of around -30F, my oil temps can drop as low as 185-190F. Wouldn't a 10W30 pump easier than a 0W/5W-40?

5W30 would be better yet, but up front cost of 5W30 is far above a 10W30 blend.


The "pumping" that's referred to a lot is only 10s of watts between oil pump relief open and oil pump relief closed.

It's the friction in the bearing surfaces that's the big power waster, but necessary evil (think lift/drag in aircraft...can't have one without the other).

At your 185-190, the 10W30 will have lower drag than any of the 40s.



Thanks Shannow. I apologize because I've read enough of your posts and linked material to know about bearing drag being the big contributor to energy use. In the back of my mind, that's what I meant.

So far I don't have anything to report in the oil temp comparisons while using the 5W40. I have been pulling light loads since putting it in and the oil temps are only getting into the 235-240 range. Still waiting for a heavy load to make the engine work. Oil pressure is the same as 15W40 but the temps aren't as high to thin the oil to make a more even comparison.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I just don't want to run that long yet, especially with the possibility of cam failure and a possible dispute in warranty claims.

Of course, such things absolutely have to be considered. Always remember, though, that your time is worth something, too. There's definitely some good reading here about extended intervals in OTR trucks.

I'd be very curious to see what the UOAs of McLaren's trucks look like on Delvac 1 LE 5w-30. I know they're using the lube, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they do UOAs. But, on the other hand, their total accumulated mileage might not be ridiculously high.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Was the switch to 10W30 for fuel economy reasons and how much does an air compressor and new turbos cost?


Userfriendly, almost any time I check in here, it's usually for a short time. I scan through a few sections and I'm gone again. I'm either busy or can't afford to lose sleep being on here. This past week has been no different.

All that to say that I wrongly assumed that you were (maybe) implying that a little fuel saved with 10W30 was a false economy and would cost me a turbo or air compressor. I've had that sort of conversation with fellow drivers who couldn't imagine using the lighter viscosity oils. I apologize for taking that view.

I can't give you an accurate price for either part, but I'm sure a new air compressor for my truck (it's a 31.8 CFM two cylinder) must be a couple thousand dollars plus labor. Don't hold me to that, though. I believe a big ol' Holset variable geometry turbo would be a minimum $5,000 for the part, probably more. I've heard guys talk of their costs for turbos but it's been awhile.

Those are my best guesses, but those numbers don't include towing or other related damages. I have been fortunate to never lose a turbo or compressor and I hope I never find out what the exact cost is.

To address your later posts, I can tell that your inquisitive nature has put you way ahead of me in the world of BITOG. I'm a lousy student.

You asked if a lightweight oil would get into the air system and be harmful to the air system. Some oil does get past the rings and into the air system. Modern trucks have oil coalescing air dryers on them. They can take care of "normal" amounts of oil, but eventually the compressor may wear enough to allow too much oil into the lines. I honestly hadn't ever given the air compressor consideration during talk of lower viscosity oils, but I have to assume the engineers have.

 

[userfriendly]

My original post was to throw the fear factor into the discussion. When you read through all the oil companies literature and watch their video's you will find all of them saying the same thing. Not one of them want to compromise wear and reliability for small fuel economy gains. API classifications so far have been backward compatible. That does not mean SAE grades are backward compatible. They might be. The one way to find out is to try 5W30 in a 15W40 engine and see what breaks or wears out first. The same reasoning would be for you to go ahead and experiment with XW20 without manufacture approval. If it doesn't break, bitog lore says your good to go.
If I was an OTR trucker I would be more concerned about eating industrial strength meals at truck stops and highway restaurants than saving a few dollars in fuel costs. At the end of the year, show me the money you saved. I read testimonials in trucker rags; "We saved $250,000 in fuel costs in one year by using XW30 brand X engine oil in our fleet". OK, show me the money, where is it? Down your pant leg?
Edit; I've picked up on your schedule. This gives you something to read during breaks on the road.

 

[dustyroads]

I had plenty of fear of using 30 grade oils in this particular engine, only because of the set up (high torque/ultra low rpm). While the UOA's show more lead than any other engine I've had before, there aren't any signs of destruction using 10W30. The turbo is the least of my worries when using lighter viscosity oil, no fear for that.

I'm not set on any certain grade, just experimenting for now. Hopefully we start getting reports of how engines running on 30's are lasting in OTR use. I'll feel better when I hear about engines going at least 1.5 million before overhauls while using XW30 oils.

 

[userfriendly]

What is the general consensus among your friends on the road? I put the question to a gentleman that has 10 Cummins powered tri-drive on-off road trucks, his brother about 40 on road super B's, some of which are "Aardvarks" too. He just laughed and pointed to 30 or so empty Delo 15W40 drums. "Can you read labels?" Every year he drops the 2 oldest tractors and buys 2 new ones. Most truckers like him with generations of investment, don't want to mess with success, and so far 15W40 for him has been a success story. "Show me the money you've saved", should be the 1st question people ask when discussing light weight engine oils, car or truck.