Delvac Elite 10W30 21,900 miles Volvo D13

[dustyroads]

Userfriendly, no doubt Volvo is allowing the oil to run 35F higher (than previous years) to improve fuel mileage. They have determined that it's going to be fine over the long run (apparently). I will say though, that my first Volvo, a 2012 model with the 10.8L D11, was also programmed to allow 246-247F oil temps from the factory. However, I went in for warranty work at 39K miles and they reprogrammed the ECM to maintain the traditional 210F. Volvo was finding some issues in the geartrain and suspected the high oil temps was either the problem or at least a contributor, but I don't have any details.

I hadn't thought about the hotter, thinner oil generating less heat in the bearings. The extra side leakage would allow the bearings to accept more fresh oil into them as well.

My concern is bearing fatigue over the long run. I don't expect them to get wiped out in a few oci's but I worry that within several hundred thousand miles they could go bad. Maybe much sooner. Even if I had some warning (via uoa) and replaced them before any serious damage, it's still a considerable cost.

I'm just looking at this particular engine's operation. It is mostly running at 1100 and spends a lot of time at just 1000-1100 (climbing hills) with a lot of torque being generated.

Volvo brags that the bearings are gigantic and ready for this kind of operation. I don't build, teardown or evaluate torn down engines and I'm not second guessing the engineers at Volvo. The thing is, over time the high temps and 10W30 may combine for a shorter life. These days 1.5 - 2 million miles before overhaul is common and I'd like to think I can get there, too. This new high torque/super low rpm is still fairly new. So far Volvo is not reprogramming the D13 to run cooler (as with my D11).

I apologize if I'm being stupid here. I'm all for saving fuel but wonder if we'll still have long engine life. The oils are amazing and the engines are amazing. I'm probably overthinking this stuff (or am I not thinking enough?).

It is a fascinating truck and a hoot to drive.

 

[dustyroads]

I want to add that despite my concerns, I certainly expect to run more 10W30 (other, better priced versions) to experiment. Possibly the Delo 15W30 (?)

I had a couple coupons to use at Speedco so I used them to bring down the astronomical cost of a T6 oil change to a reasonable cost. Also got 6,750 points toward my Rotella "MyRewards" account using T6. So I'm using it for the next two months and maybe it'll be a good fit somehow.

 

[Shannow]

Posted this in another thread.

ftp://ftp.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/diesel/hdeocp/minutes/2001/hdeocp.2001-05-25/052501ATT12.PDF

 

[dustyroads]

Thanks for the link Shannow.

That certainly shows the benefit of a straight grade vs the wide spread 5W40 I'm using at the moment. At the least, makes a good case for using 10W30 or the new 15W30.

They seemed to stress that there's no proof that higher HTHS is better, at least beyond a certain point. Like a heavy duty 10W30 that's properly formulated to maintain adequate HTHS after shearing is good enough, and maybe 15W40 is just overkill and wasting energy. In my quick reading, that's how I took it. Did I get that wrong or take out of context?

The other question I have is...they show how HTHSV does indeed correlate to KV in shearing down. What about after being sheared down (via VM shearing); when an oil oxidizes into a thicker KV due to degradation, does HTHSV somehow inprove with the thicker oil, too? Yeah the oil becomes thicker, but it happens thru degradation...does it matter?

 

[userfriendly]

Evaporative losses used to be part of the stay in grade plan pre NOACK.

The 15W40 grade has evolved from it's conception. In some examples almost a 20W50. Maybe what is needed now is a fuel economy 15w40. Marketing new grades like fuel economy 20W40 could be a hard sell. It could be the best engine oil that nobody would buy.

 

[Shannow]

dustyroads,
here's a link from another thread
Originally Posted By: Shannow
SR5, google book links are notorious for failing, but here is the paper.

Alexander on Change of Engine Oil Viscosity in Use

Describes exactly what we saw with the early M1 0W40 with shear thinning and oxidative thickening, and that there's a strong difference between the mechanical shearing tests and actual performance...

I think in Motorcycles the mechanical shearing effect is greater than the oxidative thickening


Lifted from the link, there's this relationship between shear stability, KV loss versus HTHS loss...there was a rule of thumb kicking around that HTHS loss % was half of KV100 loss %.

But then is tempered by the introduction of oxidative thickening...

Which then brings up a "it all depends" factor. Some did little, some thickened, but given modern injection systems, not sure on what the overall end picture tells (we don't know the VII type/treat rate in a finished oil, and we don't know the propensity of the individual engine to shear...well you are getting data for sure), except I want to make sure I've got sufficient viscosity reserve

As to HTHS minimums, there's a clearly established link to HTHS in traditionally formulated oils.

Examples in this paper
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3741762/HD_engine,_economy_and_wear_5W#Post3741762

But also, where the industry is headed with additive solutions to wear.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ht_#Post3797020

 

[dustyroads]

Thanks again Shannow! I need to read much more from the book, but it seems that oxidative thickening does work to recover the HTHS (reading page 66). I thought that HTHSV shearing was probably permanent and thickening via degradation wouldn't necessarily improve film strength.

I only had time to read a few pages and hadn't had my coffee yet, but I will continue to read and study it more every chance I get. In my haste, I may have misunderstood or misread what I saw so far.

In the future I will grab a few samples from the course of an oci to watch the progression of thickening. Nothing to prove, but for my own interest and to share here.

 

[userfriendly]

Dusty, I remain unconvinced that oxidative thickening was at work in the sample you provided. Your 10W30 PAO synthetic followed 15W40 conventional. No matter how long you let the oil drip when changing engine oil, 15% might still be left behind in the engine and oil cooling system. I would wait for another 10W30 uoa with less hours and that follows 10W30 instead of 15W40, and go from there.

 

[Garak]

I would agree, other than that Delvac Elite 10w-30 is a synthetic blend.

 

[userfriendly]

Sorry DR. I'm bad for high jacking threads. I'll continue with my assumptions and assume that the Elite 10W30 is a pao/group II blend, and your 15W40 is predominately a group II. Would the lighter viscosity of the 10W30 product automatically make it more prone to oxidative thickening? Garak; What is your take on this? I'm thinking ring zone exposure, as the low bulk oil sump temperature is not a contributing factor. If indeed oxidative thickening is taking place.

 

[Garak]

You may be quite right; PAO may be part of the blend and the Delvac Elite 10w-30 is a blend. I'm not convinced of oxidative thickening, either. The problem is, I think, as you indicated. We haven't gotten a trending of the same lube; there's been jumping around. And, we don't have a VOA of this batch of 10w-30, either.

I tend to stick with the same product for tens of thousands of miles, and that's without even doing the UOAs.

It's interesting to note that this Delvac Elite 10w-30 isn't spark rated at all, whereas the Delvac Elite 15w-40 is. It wouldn't bother me in the least of course, though, since this isn't one of those two-stroke diesel oils. It could give the Shell marketing people a fit, though.

 

[userfriendly]

Bwahahaha; OK, that wasn't exactly subtle either. Not that I have read through your posts. Lol.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Sorry DR. I'm bad for high jacking threads. I'll continue with my assumptions and assume that the Elite 10W30 is a pao/group II blend, and your 15W40 is predominately a group II. Would the lighter viscosity of the 10W30 product automatically make it more prone to oxidative thickening? Garak; What is your take on this? I'm thinking ring zone exposure, as the low bulk oil sump temperature is not a contributing factor. If indeed oxidative thickening is taking place.


No need to apologize, userfriendly. All commentary/criticism is welcome.

I will gladly concede your point if I'm wrong about the oil oxidizing. I'm so mad that I missed getting a sample last week, it would have been my second sample of the Delvac 10W30. I'm also somewhat regretting that I switched to T6, but between some savings and reward points, I had to see what it's all about.

As dnewton said, all three reports look fine. No worries yet, but I will persist in saying that the oil is oxidizing (fairly quick). It's just an observation so far and something I have not had to deal with in previous years so I'm taking more interest in it (although I had known about some of the issues for a long time). My number one concern is HTHSV in this engine as I've never had one put so much stress on the oil circulating through it.

I will reiterate that all of my previous trucks (for last 17 years) were set to maintain 210F, only going above that in tough going. I've never had an oil stay at or even near it's virgin KV100, rather they shear down closer to the low end of their respective J300 range. No thickening to be found.

The Kendall is the most telling of oxidation. The first run was in cold weather mostly and was thicker than any uoa viscosity I've seen from my trucks. The second run of Kendall was in the spring and spent more time at the maximum temp allowed. The Delvac was most impressive, having stayed at the max for almost all hours driven. Idle time temp was only ~200F so no harm there.

The next generation of oil is supposed to be better at handling oil temps like mine. I don't know how much higher oil temps will be in the future, but that's a consideration for the future oils. I look forward to trying the next gen oils.

My plan is to get a voa and uoa with two or three samples pulled in between and present the results here. Just not sure which oil to go with yet.

Garak, I used to shake my head at people who bounced around with different oils. I was raised on Rotella while maintaining many farm tractors and then swithed to Delvac for several years in my trucks. BITOG has me bouncing all over the place in the oil market.

 

[Garak]

Exactly. Without trending, it's a little harder to get a grasp on things. But, nothing really looks terribly untoward in these reports. In fact, if these were mine, I wouldn't worry in the least.

As for bouncing around, I give people a hard time about it, but I get very, very tempted myself at times. This is on special. That is a new, nifty oil. I like this one's new packaging. I like that one's new warranty. This one comes with a shirt....

Of course, this all has me thinking. I'm wondering what the advantages would be, if any, of Delvac Elite 10w-30 versus Delvac Super 1300 10w-30. I haven't even tried to compare the cost.

 

[dustyroads]

The only advantage using the "Elite" would be the length of interval. I would gladly use the plain ol' Delvac 1300 10W30 if it were readily available.

Since I get my services done at the convenience of my schedule on the road, I use an oil I can get at any major truckstop or quick lube. I have never seen Delvac 1300 10W30 or any other conventional 10W30. That's why I used the blend. The mark up in price is $50 over a bulk 15W40 oil change, for any of the blends.

I'll get settled down and stick with one oil next year but until then, I'm sticking with similar oci intervals (400 hours of drive time) for trending. Since joining BITOG, I 've tried a few different oils and they all showed the same results in the same engines, so I'm not worried about differing oils messing up my wear trends. This engine could be different, but it doesn't seem so yet.

I saw a difference in oil pressure and oil temps with the two grades and now watching the 5W40 to see how it compares at the same reference points.

 

[Garak]

Well, I suppose that's not too bad of a markup, considering your sump size. I'm lucky as to Mobil product availability, generally speaking. If I want something, Imperial Oil will almost certainly have it in stock and will sell it to me.

 

[userfriendly]

DR; What will be your cold start ritual for the next few months? Run outside, start the truck, go back inside for breakfast/coffee then jump into a nice warm truck and drive off? If so, that will add a few engine hours on top of your driving time, much like running the engine for air conditioning in the summer.
If I understand certifications correctly, CJ-4 has wear limitations that are not viscosity dependent. That would mean all CJ-4 engine oils should result in the same engine wear as long as the correct viscosity is used for the engine and ambient.
You wrote that 10W30 and 15W40 are both approved grades for your truck, and 5W40 is likely listed as a winter option. A look in WM and C_Tire at 0W40, I found 2 with CJ-4 on the label. One from Mobil and T-6. I didn't see a 5W30 CJ-4, but I'm sure they are out there. Maybe Dexos II is the same thing.
Fuel economy comparison charts galore 15W40 vs. 10W30, but what about 5W40 vs. 0W40 or maybe 5w30 vs. 0W40 vs. 15W30?

 

[Garak]

There are 5w-30 HDEOs again, in CJ-4. Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 and Chevron Delo 400 LE 5w-30 are two examples. There is a Castrol version, too, but I haven't seen it yet in the wild. I also came across a Castrol C3 5w-30 dexos2, which is, of course, a little different. Here is a thread outlining the discovery of the dexos2 product.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
DR; What will be your cold start ritual for the next few months? Run outside, start the truck, go back inside for breakfast/coffee then jump into a nice warm truck and drive off? If so, that will add a few engine hours on top of your driving time, much like running the engine for air conditioning in the summer.
If I understand certifications correctly, CJ-4 has wear limitations that are not viscosity dependent. That would mean all CJ-4 engine oils should result in the same engine wear as long as the correct viscosity is used for the engine and ambient.
You wrote that 10W30 and 15W40 are both approved grades for your truck, and 5W40 is likely listed as a winter option. A look in WM and C_Tire at 0W40, I found 2 with CJ-4 on the label. One from Mobil and T-6. I didn't see a 5W30 CJ-4, but I'm sure they are out there. Maybe Dexos II is the same thing.
Fuel economy comparison charts galore 15W40 vs. 10W30, but what about 5W40 vs. 0W40 or maybe 5w30 vs. 0W40 vs. 15W30?


Well, actually I'm an over the road trucker so no running out to start the truck. I make my own coffee IN the truck

and have a Webasto heater keeping the interior warm while the truck is turned off.

I do start the truck cold most of the winter. If I shut down and the temp is below zero (Fahrenheit) and headed lower, I often leave the truck running for peace of mind (especially if I'm in the middle of nowhere). I started running 10W30 a couple winters ago (at least part of them) for help in cold starting and now running 5W40 for the first time. I purchased this truck last december and ran 15W40 all winter, which worked for most of my years of ownership. I think you were implying that I should run such an oil for the cold starts and cold temp idle/operation and I agree. Every little bit helps in northern winters.

Volvo puts out a list of approved oils and they're okay for year round use, no matter the oil grade or time of year. Chevron, Mobil and Castrol all have 5W30's that I can run at any time. If it is Volvo VDS-4 approved, it's fine all year.

 

[Garak]

Of course, you have to watch price. Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 is ridiculously cheap up here, rivaling conventional. Yet, it costs more south of the border. Go figure.