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Delta crash at Toronto
- Thread starter edyvw
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All of which could be easily fixed by Delta with release of the pilots names. The fact that they won't (or delayed it) tells you all you need to know about their motives.
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They are not allowed to release their names.
MolaKule
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So what does releasing the pilot's name do for trying to determine the probable cause of the crash? Nothing is added to what happened by doing that.
You don't know anyone's motives, nor does anyone else.
Actually - this post tells me everything I need to know.
You want those people doxxed. Their names released before the investigation is complete. Before the facts are known. You want to engage in rumors, unsubstantiated accusations, and allegations.
That tells me all I need to know about your motives.
Next time you're accused of something, would you be willing to release all of your personal information for the public to judge you, when they are not qualified to do so, and they don't yet have all the facts of the case?
Better, perhaps someone could steal all of that information, and start posting it on social media against your interests, and without your permission.
Maybe you should start by posting your full legal name, address, driver's license number, high school transcript, and college transcript, for us to look you up, so we can judge all of your posts on the forum.
Because we have a right to know, don't we?
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I was going to say the same thing about posting his identity.
What I find fascinating about the discussion, is everybody assumes that when they get on an airplane, that they are getting Sully, a 60-year-old former fighter pilot with decades of experience.
But the industry doesn’t work that way, and it never has.
Pilots, like doctors, or any other profession, have to start somewhere.
And they start in military aircraft, or in the right seat of Regional jets. They graduate from that as they gain experience, and move into the left seat of a regional jet, or the left seat of a military transport, or continue gaining experience in their single seat military aircraft…
Then, once they are fairly experienced, they get hired by a major airline and usually start out in the right seat of a narrow body aircraft. Eventually moving up to the right seat of a wide body, then the left seat of a narrow body, and then the left seat of a wide body
You want Sully? He’s probably in the left seat of an international widebody.
He most certainly is not in the right seat of a Regional jet like this one. That is an entry-level position. It doesn’t pay particularly well. The schedules tend to suck. You fly a lot of legs in one day.
Further, for decades, the industry paid very poorly. And a guy like Sully, who was getting out of the military, probably wouldn’t have even looked at the airlines, and went into defense consulting instead.
Go read the accident report for Colgan air 3407. Take a look at the experience of the right seat Pilot in that crash.
Congress changed the law in response to that crash, and created the “conditional ATP“, requiring a great deal more experience in the right seat of Regional jet. However, most first officers at regionals are still not experienced pilots. They have more experience than they used to, like the the 300 hour person who had to moonlight as a barista to make ends meet, so, now you have a 1000 hour pilot.
Still inexperienced, though.
You don’t have a 20,000 hour pilot like Sully in the right seat of an RJ.
And you never will.
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I don't think it's only a matter of hours accumulated. It's also a matter of how those hours were flown in what equipment and under what conditions. Every flight brings an increment of knowledge, but an approach to minimums at night in the dead of winter is probably worth more than a winter trip from S. FL to the Bahamas in terms of learning. The crew of a long haul flight accumulates a lot of hours but most of those hours are pretty quiet, while a duty day in an RJ will involve a number of segments, with takeoffs and landings at each end, often in bad weather conditions.
Training also matters. You went to a tough school Astro. I can't recall what you wrote about it, but you made your first carrier landing with a shocking small number of hours TT, but such was the quality of the training you received and what you were expected to learn that you made a successful trap, which no doubt did a lot to increase your confidence in your skills.
We don't yet know what put this airplane on its back.
We can observe that it was flown on an unstable approach and that it apparently touched down hard on one main gear at an excessive rate of descent.
Was the hard touchdown on one main the cause of the catastrophic structural failure, or was there a defect in the gear or its attachment points that caused it to fail under loads it should have been able to sustain?
We don't yet know that, but we will.
Meanwhile, we can celebrate the fact that nobody was killed and we can be secure in the knowledge that the causes will be determined and lessons will be learned to prevent this from happening again.
We should all collectively refrain from blaming the crew, since I have no doubt they were well qualified to operate the flight and crew errors do happen, usually with little more than a red faced moment.
Training also matters. You went to a tough school Astro. I can't recall what you wrote about it, but you made your first carrier landing with a shocking small number of hours TT, but such was the quality of the training you received and what you were expected to learn that you made a successful trap, which no doubt did a lot to increase your confidence in your skills.
We don't yet know what put this airplane on its back.
We can observe that it was flown on an unstable approach and that it apparently touched down hard on one main gear at an excessive rate of descent.
Was the hard touchdown on one main the cause of the catastrophic structural failure, or was there a defect in the gear or its attachment points that caused it to fail under loads it should have been able to sustain?
We don't yet know that, but we will.
Meanwhile, we can celebrate the fact that nobody was killed and we can be secure in the knowledge that the causes will be determined and lessons will be learned to prevent this from happening again.
We should all collectively refrain from blaming the crew, since I have no doubt they were well qualified to operate the flight and crew errors do happen, usually with little more than a red faced moment.
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Made worse by the pilot shortage.
Major airlines up here are now hiring pilots with 2000 hours
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There is a difference between experienced Captains and experienced pilots at the controls.
Even wide body operations have a lot less experince in the flight deck today due to the pilot shortage and airline expansion.
On the pilot overseas operations, at some point Sully will leave the flight deck for nap time and guess who is left in charge at the controls in front while Sully is sleeping - an FO & RP.
In the past, only experienced FO’s at least were on wide bodies but today even those positions are filled by low time pilots often and the RP’s have even less experience.
Remember Air France 447?
Sully was sleeping in the back.
Low time new hire FOs are being hired and going directly into the WB unlike before. It used to take years to hold FO.
Even wide body operations have a lot less experince in the flight deck today due to the pilot shortage and airline expansion.
On the pilot overseas operations, at some point Sully will leave the flight deck for nap time and guess who is left in charge at the controls in front while Sully is sleeping - an FO & RP.
In the past, only experienced FO’s at least were on wide bodies but today even those positions are filled by low time pilots often and the RP’s have even less experience.
Remember Air France 447?
Sully was sleeping in the back.
Low time new hire FOs are being hired and going directly into the WB unlike before. It used to take years to hold FO.
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
As human performance training teaches …
I agree with everything you said and I do understand younger pilots have to gain experience somewhere.
I found this video interesting. Info about pilot washing out of Delta training and going back to his regional airline. Allowing FO to land in such challenging conditions with such little flight time.
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I’m happy to discuss the industry, Pilot training issues, and everything else, but I really dislike this kind of video.
This is character assassination and represents the very worst of salacious selling of rumor as fact. Just look at that Clickbait title, it starts out with “the shocking truth about…”.
You don’t know this to be true. I don’t know this to be true. This video is many things, but it is not purveying the truth.
Until a government agency publishes a report, or Endeavor or Delta airlines itself publishes the pilot training records, everything you see in this video is hearsay.
The pilot training records are confidential. They are protected by law, the same way that people’s health records are protected by law. That’s somebody’s private business, and I’ve taken the video out of your post because of that.
If you want to talk about decisions that are made by captains in line operations, I’m happy to discuss that.
And there are times when captains make the decision to take the airplane from a less experienced first officer. I’ve done that, and I’ve done it many times.
On the other hand, a first officer who only flies on a sunny day with no cross- wind isn’t gonna be much of a captain themselves when they finally get upgraded.
So there are times when I let the first officer land the airplane, even though the conditions are challenging.
That’s my judgment call, as captain, and as a check airman.
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Agreed, strongly.
I have only had to take control ( other than a flight instructor where I got paid to let people try and kill me but I loved it back then ) once in real life and another time in the sim.
That said, I have carefully picked which legs I fly at times and called go arounds at times ( not a lot of GA's to be honest ) when not stable.
I just saw a slow motion video on YouTube of the landing, and though the resolution was bad, it suggests that at the time that right main touched down, a clowd of something erupted. Probably snow, but could have been unlit fuel. If it was snow the SPECULATION was that when the runway was cleared of snow, it was piled beside the runway, and the aircraft touched down off center placing that right main in the pile of snow along side the runway. Plowing through snow at landing speed is way beyond design. That snow may have even been very dense. A fire-ball of burning fuel erupted immediately after the first clowd of something and the fireball did not seam to ignite the first clowd that it touched, but it could have been that it just did not have enough time if the first clowd was fuel.
It would be worth while to see what that entire area looked like right after it was safe to look at. Was there a pile of snow along side the runway, and did it appear the right main set down in it if it existed?
It would be worth while to see what that entire area looked like right after it was safe to look at. Was there a pile of snow along side the runway, and did it appear the right main set down in it if it existed?
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https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2025/a25o0021/a25o0021-preliminary.html
The preliminary report from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada.
I would strongly encourage all those interested in the topic, particularly those who have participated in this thread, to give it a read. Once you’ve had an opportunity to do that, we will consider reopening the Thread.
The preliminary report from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada.
I would strongly encourage all those interested in the topic, particularly those who have participated in this thread, to give it a read. Once you’ve had an opportunity to do that, we will consider reopening the Thread.
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