Update: First Brands did not want the defective filter back that I have been holding onto unless, I was making a warranty claim. They did offer me two free filters for my troubles. Being hesitant to take another Tough Guard, I’ve asked for two Fram Endurance FE10060. They responded today they could provide those to me. Awaiting shipment at this time.
Defective Tough Guard TG10060 removed C&P
- Thread starter Bighorn2500
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It’s very non restrictive lol.
Gosh I hope first brands doesn't start doing this sorta stuff to my beloved ecores!
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I'd make a warranty claim and sure would't take the 2 filters from Fram. After that, I would't support any of their products.
Zee09
$200 Site Donor 2023
Be sure to repaint them before you install them..Don't worry I'm going away now
Didn't early VW Bugs have no oil filter? I heard that somewhere......
They had a screen and other issues…plenty of issues
Nor really I had 2 with NO issues....
One had 89000 and the square back had 120.00 with no issues...
they were good engines....
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Actually, I looked into just that question as a possible way to ease my potential worries about catastrophic filter failures such as the one in this thread. My Dad had old, air-cooled VW's, and I know they didn't have oil filters. Also, none of motors in my (very hard-working) OPE has filters, and neither do some of my air-cooled MC's.
However, looking at the secret to the VW's ability to survive without a filter, I think it was mostly due to very short OCI's. E.g., here's something from aircooled.net (emphasis added):
Doing a little calculating, I think the recommended 1K OCI for these filter-less VW's compares to the low-hour OCI interval of my OPE and filter-less MC's.
So, using this "VW's didn't have any filter al all" rationale did not end up alleviating any of my concerns about this Fram failure.
In fact, it nudged me into deciding to switch to short FCI for all my vehicles.
This subject Fram filter was not a "failure" in service, it looks like a defect during manufacturing which could happen on any mass produced oil filter made on an automated line. If you're worried about a filter failing during service, go buy a filter with media backing (wire or nylon mesh). You might have to pay a bit more for a filter like that, but maybe it would be worth it to squash the worry factor.
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Yes, I do understand that in this case the failure was a manufacturing defect, and that's the failure mode I'm talking about in response to the suggestion to buy a filter with a more tear-resistant design.
If one is concerned about a filter failure due to questions about manufacturing quality (as demonstrated in this thread), then the soundness of the design (i.e., wire backing and such) won't compensate for that.
Personally, I'm concerned about both design and manufacturing quality. Seems there's no brand that can be counted on for both. It appears to me that the six sigma-style of quality control is lost on filters these days with all the corporate consolidation.
That said, I do agree that there is little sign of problem with the FE's and most likely they're fine.
But then again, I hadn't seen any problems with the TG's either until this thread. Makes me feel like it might just be a matter of time...
This manufacturing defect has nothing to do with the media's tearing resistance. The TGs (nor any Fram) really don't tear in service ... if they did, we would see many threads showing they do, which we don't see here. There might be a freak incident now and then just like that's possible with any brand of oil filter, but it's not a normal mode of operation.
Backed media filters don't tear media. You will not find any examples here. You could buy a car that uses a cartridge style oil filter, then you could inspect the cartridge before installing it.
This subject manufacturing defect is the first time I've seen one like that, and that's over 14 years of reading this board. I highly doubt you'll see another one like this any time soon. If you're afraid of oil filter manufacturing defects, then go without a filter, but change your oil every 500 miles ... not a practical solution. Just buy a filter with media backing if you're worried about the media tearing in service.
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I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, this was a manufacturing defect, not a failure in service. It very well could be a rare manufacturing defect, but given the sample rate of filters on here (i.e., very low vs. the total number produced) it might be more common than one would hope.
But regardless of how common this manufacturing defect might be, suggesting a sturdier design with wire backing will not assuage that fear because if there is indeed a problem with quality manufacturing, they could make a defective wire-backed filter just as easily as they made the defective TG shown in this thread.
Agree-- assuming they don't screw up the manufacturing of that wire-backed filter like they screwed up the manufacture of the TG that is the subject of this thread. That's where my concern about manufacturing quality come in. Wire-backed does make a filter virtually tear-free, but only if they manufacture it correctly!
True, but I have all the cars I want for the rest of my life, so I won't be replacing them just to get that advantage.
Also true, but the same can be said of many filters. Purolators didn't always tear until they did. Wix was great, right up until all the problems with leaky or non-functioning bypasses. Fram didn't have the OCOD events right up until they did (many years ago).
I, too, used to go on reputation. As I mentioned in another thread of mine, I used to use Wix based on a search I did in 2010 and never bothered to look into it again. But what I've learned here of late is that my assumption of future quality based on past results is not warranted.
Wix and Purolator were brought under the M+H umbrella, and now there are quality problems. Fram is part of First Brands, which is apparently laboring under debt-- and now we see a problem not seen in at least 14 years.
Based on the flux of the parent company, I'm not going to make any assumptions that it was a fluke. Maybe it was, but who knows for sure?
I guess we'll see, but that prediction is based on the hypothesis that if you haven't seen it before, you won't see it in the future. But things have changed with these brand's parent companies-- so I'm not sure I trust that hypothesis. Doesn't mean these filters are guaranteed to be bad in the future, but it does mean that a 14-year positive record isn't completely determinative.
I actually looked into the possibility of using a screen filter-- apparently K&N makes one. It seemed to be widely panned here. That's what got me looking into the VW's that only had a screen (per my post above).
So, I'm splitting the difference: I'll get the cheapest filter I can (that doesn't have a terrible reputation) and change it every one year or 5K miles. Odds are that there won't be problems with any of them, but if there ever is a problem (either due to manufacturing defect or poor design), damage will be limited.
Fortunately, filter change is very easy on all my vehicles.
Not really ... what you are saying is that you are super paranoid of oil filter defects and failures. It's not rocket science to mitigate that fear. Go buy a known good brand filter with backed media would be a good solution to curb the worries. If you are also concerned about the filter efficiency, then that puts another factor on the end solution because not all filters with backed media have the same efficiency.
It's not common ... like I said, I've probably seen 1000s of filter C&Ps here over the last 14 years and this is the first one like this I've seen. If this same failure keeps popping up on a regular basis, then it's something to get worried over.
Some freak manufacturing defect seems to have made you super paranoid and worried about every oil filter in the world. If you think every oil filter coming of the assembly line might have a manufacturing defect, then I can't really help you. Go buy a brand that shows the least issues here, there are many. If you don't want one to possibly tear in service, then don't go Purolators (unless you want the lower efficiency Boss line with nylon mesh backed media) as there was one just recently made that showed a tear in the media in a new thread posted here. Purolators don't seem to tear as often as they use too, but reports of them tearing still pop up here, just like the recent thread I mentioned.
You're going to have to work on the paranoia or you'll never come to some logical solution.
The oil filter world is always dynamic, and one needs to constantly be monitoring it to see what's happening. Yes, all brands of oil filters have had their issues over time.
All you can do is watch the dynamic world of oil filters and make decisions based on what's happening in a near current time frame. Many members here have jumped from one filter brand/models to another based on what's going on with oil filters. I went from Toyota to Purolator (and Motorcraft, which is Purolator made) to Fram Ultra to now Mircogard Select based on the never ending dynamics in the oil filter world. If I was a TG user, I would not be concerned about the freak manufacturing defect seen on this subject filter, but that's me.
Reading and participating in this forum for 14 years would give anyone more insight than someone who didn't participate that much. Here's a suggestion, go get a "Microgard Select" at O'Reilly's. After all my research it seem to be a very well built and high quality filter (with 99% @ 25u efficiency) that looks pristine after use in every C&P done here. So much that I decided to buy one last week for my car. And it also has lots of big holes in the center tube, so don't have to scrutinize the formation of louvers to decide it they are open enough to not worry about elevated dP and easier filter bypassing.
You're worried about quality and in-service failures and you're going to buy the cheapest filter you can? Hummn, seems a bit counter productive to the end solution of your worries.
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Well, I prefer to think of myself as reasonably cautious rather than super-paranoid!
My fear is that FB filters might be at the beginning stage of quality issues that is exactly like what happened to Purolator.
In the case of Purolator, it seems that the failures occurred according to Hemingway's bankruptcy-- "slowly, then suddenly!" Is this thread evidence of that dynamic with FB filters? I don't want to risk my engines on that possibility!
I know what you're saying (and generally agree), but "common" is a very difficult term for anyone to define or even fully understand.
The one in this thread certainly has gotten my attention, and I'm dubious as to how "freak" it was. Could it be that it's "slowly" now, but will be "suddenly" in the near future? Maybe so, maybe no. But I have a bad feeling about it.
I hope I'm wrong as I actually like Fram. Filter of my youth!
That would be totally unreasonable for anyone to think-- I certainly don't think that.
This is exactly what I want to do! All I need is someone to tell me exactly which brand that is!
And the key is to tell me not only which brand is showing the least issues here, but, importantly, which has the corporate stability that would give one confidence that they will continue to have that same reliability in the future.
Yes-- I agree. I want to like Purolator so bad and have bought them recently. I can get them cheap and conveniently at Menards. But, as you said, the wire-backed Boss' don't have high efficiency, and there doesn't seem to be a high amount of confidence in the lower end ones (that do filter well).
Believe me, I follow all of @fantastic 's posts hoping he will build my confidence in Purolator!
I want to believe!
Ahem... that should be "reasonably cautious," not "paranoid."You're going to have to work on the paranoia or you'll never come to some logial solution.
Yes, unfortunately that's what I've come to learn here in the past couple of months.
That's exactly what I plan to do-- I'll jump to any filter based on low cost and reasonable reputation for my 5K FCI's. Right now, the Ecogard Standard seems to fit that bill, and I just bought a few. I'll switch in a heartbeat if problems arise with those.
True, but I'm a quick study, and have been working hard on this!
That's pretty much what I've done, but with Ecogard instead of Microgard. Ecogard standard has 96% at 20um (per Belavita's awesome spreadsheet) and is regularly on sale at Walmart.com for well under $3 a piece. I would use the Microgard Selects, but they're much more expensive.
Also, aren't the Selects made by Wix? I think they used to be. Another thing I'll need to look up-- ugh-- hard to keep up with all of the changes!
Remember, it's cheapest, but with a decent reputation. The C&P's of the Ecogards have looked great.
I really appreciate your engagement with me. I've learned a lot from your posts on BITOG as I've been studying them like crazy over the past couple of months as I try to determine my vehicle maintenance schedules now that I've retired.
I actually have a Word document where I store various tidbits of information from your (and a few others') posts for easy reference, so I generally know what you think about most things related to filters.
Love the debates between you and dnewton3 on the practical importance of high-efficiency filtering!
The line between overly cautious and paranoid is pretty thin.Well, I prefer to think of myself as reasonably cautious rather than super-paranoid!
Anyway, It seems your concern that this freak manufacturing defect is much higher than it is for me. Fram was informed of the issue, which is a good thing if they listen and look into why that happened. Customer feedback for any product is a good thing.If something keeps showing up in this forum, it's probably going to be a fairly common issue. I remember when the Purolator tearing issue hit the fan, and there were actually guys here who claimed it was only happening to BITOG members, lol. Now how likely would that be unless every one of the reported media tears were faked, which they were not.
My bet is this is a one-off freak incident.
For your use case, it sounds like a good solution. If you don't want the extra filtering efficiency due to the shorter OCIs, then it's a good fit.
No, they are not WIX made filters. Most MicroGard Selects are made in Vietnam. You've probably seen them posted here, and have seen a few of the Whip City Wrencher YouTube vidoes on them.
After the dust settled, the Ecogards seem like your new go-to filter.
Thanks ... yeah, debating all of this is fun and a good time eater to boot - which can be a bad thing at times, lol.
It seems like the process failure is the metal crimp band did not get installed, allowing the media to enter gluing with the gap. I'm not seeing how it could be a tear because the edges are uniform across the full length on both sides. Here are the defect rates for 4, 5 and 6 sigma quality levels.
4 Sigma: 6,210 defects per million
5 Sigma: 233 defects per million
6 Sigma: 3.4 defects per million
Keep in mind the values are for all types of defects that force a unit to be scrapped, reworked, deviated on or in this case, escaped out to the customer. What we hope is Fram has been improving its processes since 2014 when this unit was built to drive this defect to zero and/or catch it 100% of the time within the factory. It would be interesting to find out how many million units come out of Fram facilities and what sigma level their processes are rated at.
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