DARN AMSOIL!! There's just no way around it!

Gary Allan · May 19, 2004

Well, I wanted a spin on bypass filter ...sparky fixed me up (great guy). Bought the dual guard ..a full flow and a bypass (gotta love the BE-110). Upon closer examination ...I noticed, "Hey, these Cummins thread are only Cummins on the outside (the part you screw the filter on to) ..the "screw in" part is the SAME as my Permacool Ford style dual mount ...which I already had plumbed. So ...out spins the Ford threads ..in go the Amsoil threads and viola~! Easy switch.

But....

Now I looked at that fine Dual-Guard mount ..all that beef ..all that fit and finish....so regal ..so substantial ....it asks no forgiveness ..and offers no apoligies....

..and all I could fit on it is standard full flow Ford size filters since these inserts are now in my Permacool

Amsoil doesn't appear to have these fittings available seperately. In fact, if you have a Cummins and want a dual mount..you get a Dual Guard and not the mount with the biasing valve (or so the web site and tech support confirms).

So ..I sit there and debate on trying to get these fittings machined ...knowing the hassle and the expense is probably not going to be worth it...

BUT WAIT!!!! I believe that I'm saved!!! A newbie "alloy" quotes some ridiculously low price for a remote (single) mount, right off the Amsoil website, for $14.95 that fits the bypass filter. I scoff,"Surely you're mistaken. You "may" get a filter for $14.95 ..but a mount?

Well, sure enough ..alloy confirmed this with a live person and, yes, there is indeed a $14.95 mount available for the Cummins threaded Amsoil bypass filters. I said, "YA-HOO!! I'm home free. For the mere cost of $29 I can have two of these fittings to put in my Dual Guard!".

Sure ..this was way expensive for just two threaded fittings ..but what the heck

? I doubt that I could get them machined for any less (maybe ..but).

So .....

I wait with anticipation for my single (and discontinued) mount to arrive. I get home ..see the box (the excitment is growing in me as I slit the taped edges) ..and there it is ...the single moun!!!!!

I sit back and say "Now I can die a happy man"

BUT WAIT!!!!!

So ..I pickup the mount and attempt to remove the insert. I go get a pare of channel locks ...use a piece of thin rubber (one of those "jar lid grippers) and remove it. This was so I could insert it in the Dual Guard (I really only need ONE - I can put a Ford filer on my Permacool mount as the full flow.

Guess what? On the new mounts, Amsoil uses a 1x16 thread on the filter side ..and 3/4x16 on the mount side ...BUT THE OLDER SINGLE MOUNT IS 1X16 on BOTH ENDS!!!!!!

Engineered road blocks. I wonder how much more they would make in filter sales if they either make the bypass filters in Ford threads ..or made the inserts available to fit in Ford style Permacool mounts.

"All that I asked you to do is kill Superman ..and you can't do that one simple thing for me"

Oh ..one other interesting note. The single antiquated mount has a brass bolt internally threaded into the threaded insert. That is, you basically have a piece of 1 x 16 threaed pipe with a plug in it (outlet for the filter). I thought it was some type of intallations tool that was accidentally left in there. On closer inspection (REAL CLOSE) ...it has what must be about a 0.010 hole drilled in it ..but the Dual Guard inserts have no such "exit restrictor" on them.

Anyone have a clue why this older mount choked the outlet side of the flow and the newer ones appear to have no need for this restriction? One could ponder that they desired to relieve the stress of high pressure differentials to spare the media from collaspe.

..but that offers the question ...

What about now

[ May 20, 2004, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

Dan4510 · May 19, 2004

You have just discovered the richness that is american capitalism....We will make it so that you cant use anything but our expensive parts.

Dan

alloy · May 19, 2004

Well sorry to build you up and then have your bubble burst. I got my mount today and haven't had time to take it apart yet. But now you have done it for me and I don't need to.

I can machine the adapters like you need,(kill superman for you) but the question is how many can I sell to make it worthwhile? They would probably be about the same price as the old stlye mount. There is a lot of work in them, but they can be made. Think about it and maybe a lot of others can get together and I can make a bunch of the parts.

And, FYI the newer "billet" single mount amsoil sent to me by mustake also had the same restrictor bolt in the middle of the fitting.

[ May 20, 2004, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: alloy ]

Gary Allan · May 19, 2004

quote:

And, FYI the newer "billet" single mount amsoil sent to me by mustake also had the same restrictor bolt in the middle of the fitting.

Hmmm ...this is something that the Dual Guard is conspicously void of....interesting. This leads me to believe that the Dual Guard is specifically made for an install where the oil flow is already restricted ...

..but the "twin" install (full flow and bypass side by side) ..I don't believe has this feature.
As I think you can see here

MAN ..they run this riddle ragged...

quote:

I can machine the adapters like you need,(kill superman for you) but the question is how many can I sell to make it worthwhile? They would probably be about the same price as the old stlye mount. There is a lot of work in them, but they can be made. Think about it and maybe a lot of others can get together and I can make a bunch of the parts.

If you can effectively manufacture these parts (as in proper thread pitch) ..AND Amsoil doesn't have some patent on them (I don't see how) ..if I were YOU ..I'd run off as many as I could with my "spare time" until I got a decent "inventory" (enough to give you "enough" lead time to more "spare time" to make more) and I'd sit on them ..name a price that makes sense (to make a Permacool a GOOD deal WITH buying your inserts compared to the Amsoil unit) ...and sit back and make yourself a niche "mini-market". Heck ..do a good enough job and market them to Permacool as an option so that Ford filter unit buyers can opt to use the LARGER Cummins filters.

See? I've already put you in business and it didn't cost you a dime....

Now about my price????

[ May 20, 2004, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

alloy · May 19, 2004

Hmmm, didn't cost me a dime huh? Well there is that $35k cnc lathe I would make these parts on to consider

So yes, you put me into business for a dime

I'll try and pickup a perma cool mount somewhere and see what it will take to make the parts. There isn't any thick wall tubing I could get to make these, so they will have to come out of 1" solid stock. So unless someone buys 100 or these, they will be right at the same price as the mount if you buy a single part from me. And, I'm not sure of the policy of this board concerning asdvertising parts for sale. I don't want to run afoul of the oil gods here and be banned. So if you know of the site policy on this, please let me know.

alloy · May 19, 2004

Hey, did you see the perma cool mounts that come with 1" x 14 and 1" x 12 threads? Part #'s 1794 and 1795.

http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page31.html

Gary Allan · May 19, 2004

quote:

There isn't any thick wall tubing I could get to make these, so they will have to come out of 1" solid stock.

I believe schedule 80 1" pipe stock will work for this part. You may be right however. Heck, a helicoil would work for as often as you change them out ..but 1 x 16 isn't any typical thread. 1 x 12 .. 1 x 14 ..but no 1 x 16.

[ May 20, 2004, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

alloy · May 20, 2004

Myself I wouldn't use plastic in this application. Just not enough strength there. And, in my humble opinion, if amsoil could get away using plastic in this application, they would. Machining plastic would be much easier (read-faster and cheaper). So, I'm leaning towards steel myself. I'm not willing to chance plastic failing and losing my engine, or anyone else's engine for that matter.

Just my $.02 worth.

Hey, you may know the answer to this. I've looked on here for a longer filter for my mini van. I have the amsoil SDF23 and would really like a longer filter like the SDF76 I use on my car and pickup.

Is there a longer filter with more filtering area for this application? (97 astro van-4.3 engine)

Gary Allan · May 20, 2004

quote:

Myself I wouldn't use plastic in this application.

Plastic? I was referring to steel or stainless steel pipe ....very cheap. Perhaps schedule 80 in 1" or 3/4 may have the OD AND the ID to fit into the mix.

Those new Permacool setups will allow more filter options ...dipping into the industrial hydraulic realm a bit.

Baldwin and others didn't have an alternative to your filter. From the Baldwin site ...that filter looks pretty tall for the diameter. That is, it looks as long as it can be (if you can kinda see what I'm saying here).

olympic · May 25, 2004

quote:

I wait with anticipation for my single (and discontinued) mount to arrive.

I called tech services and they told me that this mount is only back-ordered, not discontinued. Who did you speak to that said it's discontinued? I want to order a bunch of them so I can add by-pass filters to the transmissions on my fleet vehicles.

Gary Allan · May 25, 2004

Sorry ..my bad. It's just not shown on any printed material ..nor advertized as a bypass anywhere else on the Amsoil site.

How did you hear about it? Here in this thread? You and probably all the known universe of those who have ordered this owe it to "alloy".

Perhaps "antiquated" would have been a wiser choice of word.

alloy · May 25, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:

How did you hear about it? Here in this thread? You and probably all the known universe of those who have ordered this owe it to "alloy".

The known universe, wow. Hmmm, put me on a pedistal will ya

Well I'm glad a "newbie" could be of so much help to everyone

olympic · May 25, 2004

Yep, many thanks! I had no idea this part existed until I found this thread. Tech said to just place my order via the website and wait and see. I ordered 8 of them, I hope they show up!

I really didn't want to pay $60 for the fancy billet mount. If this mount really was obsolete, I would have just ordered remote filter mounts from Summitracing.com for $13 each and made up some 3/4"x16 to 1"x16 adapter bushings myself. A little pipe in the appropriate size and the correct tap and dye and it would be a done deal.

Gary Allan · May 25, 2004

quote:

A little pipe in the appropriate size and the correct tap and dye and it would be a done deal.

Not so fast olypmic! If you can find a 1" -16 die ..heck go into business making them. 1" -16 is a b-astard thread. 1" -8 ..1" -14 ..all "standard" but 1" -16 appears (through all my research) limited to Cummins filters ..and Cummins filter (like) alone.

do you see a 1-16 here?

There's also the issue of your stock. I think that even schedule 80 would not give you enough in either 3/4 or 1" to allow you to do this with one piece. As alloy and I pondered ..it would probably require solid stock to be done (although I've seen some tube stock in expensive alloys that would work ...or perhaps an expensive bushing that isn't hollowed out on the interior too much that will allow a 3/4 nipple to be added to it (something "like" a 1" to 1/4" bushing) ..but it would have to be at least 1 1/4 to allow you to put in the 1 -16 thread ...and you would STILL need a die in that thread.

If you can figure a way around this thing that is any cheaper than just buying an $80+ billet mount to get two fittings ...please ..by all means ..be my guest ..I will

you

[ May 26, 2004, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

olympic · May 25, 2004

Yeah, I see what you are saying. A 1x16 die may not exist anywhere. I could check my local industrial supply store, they were even able to get me a left hand thread metric tap a while ago that I needed.

But what I am talking about is a simple bushing that would thread over the existing 3/4x16 nipple, just like the ones Amsoil includes with any of their filter adapters. Part # BP-163 thru BP-166. And believe me I tried to screw these bushings into a BE-90 bypass filter and the threads are not the same...lol! 1x14 I'm guessing because they thread in a ways and then bind up.

What we need is a bushing with 3/4x16 internal threads and 1x16 external threads. Then just loctite this onto the existing nipple on the remote filter mount and spin on the BE-90(or Cummins filter in your case).

I have no clue as to what size pipe stock would work for these threads, but I know you can get seamless mechanical tubing(DOM) in just about any OD and wall thickness imaginable. In a worst case scenario, you'd have to buy some pipe with the wrong OD or ID and get it machined to spec. But all of this is a moot point if one can not buy a 1x16 die. So for now, I'll just wait paitiently for my $15 filter mounts from Amsoil...lol!

A thought just popped into my head. You now have two 1x16 inserts from the BP-80A's you bought right? Could a skilled welder not weld these to the existing nipples on your dual guard? Or perhaps tap the insides of the BP80a inserts for 3/4x16 threads? Then they would thread right on to the existing nipples on your Dual Guard. I don't know if this would work but I thought I'd throw the idea out there for you.

I am the king of making things work, no matter how big the challenge.

I live for this kind of stuff. Check out my current project

1994 Mercury Topaz
3.0l V6 Taurus SHO drivetrain 300+hp.
fully custom suspension
nitrous
currently receiving 13" Mustang Cobra brakes at all 4 corners.

Yes, I'm crazy like that...haha

[ May 26, 2004, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: olympic ]

alloy · May 25, 2004

Ok, Alloy is here to save the known universe again

Go to http://www.mscdirect.com/ and look for part# 0393162 die nut.

And, olyimpic, don't think you uare the only crazy one here. Here is a link to a brake kit I manufacture for 3rd generation camaro's and firbirds. I sell these and some billet aluminum strut mounts to Spohn Performance. It took me over a year to work out the big brake kit, but let me tell you my car stops has "eye popping" braking now

These are pics of my car by the way with my brake kit installed.

http://www.spohn.net/productimages/Pro13_installed_1_big.JPG

http://www.spohn.net/productimages/951_Top_big.JPG

Gary Allan · May 25, 2004

Good work! You're obviously not short on either ambition nor ingenuity.

This is a challenging little problem here. I'm really compelled to figure this out JUST because I've already put so much thought into it ("because it's there" type thing). It would be fairly simple to just take two of the 80A nipples (chuck the mounts) and weld/solder the 3/4 - 16 nipple inside them. Pin them for concentricity if need be. But then I'm up to $30+ and a few hours worth of work and we're tipping the scales toward just living without it or buying another Dual Guard.

They should be shot

olympic · May 26, 2004

Your right of course, there always comes a point where buying a pre-made part is cheaper than doing it yourself. And that point comes pretty quick if you are paying someone else to do the labor. Do you happen to know the ID of the BP-80A inserts? I know it's a long shot that it would be appropriate for tapping 3/4 x 16 threads into it but it's worth a gander I guess.

Beautiful work on those brakes and strut mounts alloy, they look great! I would have loved some 6 piston Wilwood calipers but fortunately I found out beforehand that they won't clear the wheels I have. So I went with stock Cobra dual piston PBR's and some Baer Eradispeed 2-piece rotors. The wheels are 17x7 Centerline RPM's(forged, 13lbs each) The rear wheels use the same rotors with stock Taurus SHO calipers. All of this on a 2900lb car. I'll probably have to wear a mouth gaurd to keep from leaving teeth marks in the steering wheel...lol!

Brakes

Wheels

[ May 26, 2004, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: olympic ]

Gary Allan · May 26, 2004

quote:

Ok, Alloy is here to save the known universe again

Okay ..so you killed Superman ..that was yesterday ..what have you done for me today??

Thanks for the link ...I ordered the die ..now let me see if my good pal down at the machine shop will fab these up for me now that he doesn't have to "grunt" out the thread out of his arse.

alloy · May 26, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:

quote:

Ok, Alloy is here to save the known universe again

Click to expand...

Okay ..so you killed Superman ..that was yesterday ..what have you done for me today??

Geez, You sure expect a lot from a poor average guy don't you? I killed superman, so now what? Go after the Borg, or better yet the Goa'uld too

Well, all in a days work for me I guess

Good luck on making the part.

olympic,

Nice work on the brakes. You will be picking your eyeballs off the inside of your windsheild for sure. That's lots of stopping power you got there. You will really love them when you get them dialed in. You might want to consider an adjustable prop valve to help fine tune your system.

Gary has the insert out of his mount, maybe he can measure if and let us know what the ID is. Myself, I'm kinda tuckered out from killing superman

And, don't forget to make a restrictor for the mount to reduce the oil flow. I beleive it's .040 hole in it.

DARN AMSOIL!! There's just no way around it!

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