Crane Cams say's......

[LargeCarManX2]

http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/548e.pdf

That synthetic oil is too slippery to stay on camshafts, funny stuff...what is your take on this?

Also, they say Mobil Delvac is a good oil for cam break-in, is not Delvac synthetic?

 

[ewetho]

Mobil Delvac is not synthetic.
Mobil Delvac1 is.

 

[ewetho]

It did not say it was too slippery to stay on the camshaft of the flat tappet cam it said it was too slippery to properly get the lifter turning during initial break in. Much different. It is giving an specific point as to why they recommend against it. Not that big a deal.

They also go on to say you do not need the break in period for roller cams.

 

[forcedtalon]

What there saying here is the lifter needs to wear in with the camshaft lobe for maximum life out of the cam and proper oiling surfaces. Using a synthetic oil they are saying the lifter/ cam will not wear in properly.
After break in of the cam for 1000 miles with dino you can use synthetic of your choise.

 

[forcedtalon]

Roller cams with roller lifters do not need this done. Since there is a roller incontact with the cam lobe there is way less friction and better oiling. Flat lifters there is alot of pressure on the cam and the lifter. Since the lifter is flat you are always on one small surface of the lifter and alot of pressure in that area. With proper break in the lifter gets a very small galley for oil to get into you cant see it but its there.

 

[Gene K]

Delvac 1300 15W-40 is primarily Group II.

Delvac 1 5W-40 is Group IV/V

 

[JohnBrowning]

I think Crane Cams sells junk! I had problems with their cams in the past and they always weaseled out of their warranty. In both case's I found air bubbles traped inside the metal that lead to the cam's failure. You couldnot give me a Crane Cam!!! I have not had any issues with Lunati cams!!

 

[Ryan02SS]

Many people on Marine forums have been through #@$%! with their Crane cams breaking in half. Crane uses pressed on cast iron Dist gear and it's caused some problems. I'm currently hunting for a new cam for my 355 boat build and have decided to stay away from Crane. I've never had a problem with a Comp or Isky.

 

[Gene K]

Comp Cams had a lot of problems with lobes going flat on flat-tappet cams for a while.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

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It did not say it was too slippery to stay on the camshaft of the flat tappet cam it said it was too slippery to properly get the lifter turning during initial break in. Much different. It is giving an specific point as to why they recommend against it. Not that big a deal.
They also go on to say you do not need the break in period for roller cams.

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Ok, lets take this for example...why would a synthetic oil cause the lifter not to rotate in the bore as good as dino?

 

[427Z06]

I've heard that a lot of the aftermarket parts, like cams and associated valvetrain components, are no longer manufactured in the U.S. and thus quality control has been an issue. I have a feeling a lot of these aftermarket companies are simply looking for scapegoats to point the finger at.

I also hear that engine builders now degree even mild builds because you can't trust that the cams will be "straight up" anymore.

 

[ewetho]

Their contention is that the oil is slick enough/lubed enough to reduce friction far enough that the even with the offset that that there will not be enough residual friction on initial break-in to actually cause the lifter to rotate.

They are saying during break-in that synthetic actually lubricates to well until everything is broken in. Once the initial wear patterns are established and everything turns properly then you should be OK.

 

[Dieselbob]

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I think Crane Cams sells junk! I had problems with their cams in the past and they always weaseled out of their warranty. In both case's I found air bubbles traped inside the metal that lead to the cam's failure. You couldnot give me a Crane Cam!!! I have not had any issues with Lunati cams!!

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From what I have been told and have read, with the exception of the ultra high dollar cams, all the cam blanks are made by one or two companies anyway. If crane has a problem with the metal, my guess is that several other brands would too. Why would anyone want to break in a new engine on synthetic anyway? You're just going to dump it out in 20 minutes. I have used Crane as well as other brands and have had zero problems, but then I am pretty fanatical about my break in procedure. Or maybe I'm just lucky.

 

[goatdude]

As Dieselbob said, the cores are all made by one or two mfgrs (flat tappet), Crane, Comp, Crower, etc. just do the grinding. On my old 67 GTO the last engine build I used a hyd roller. What a difference in performance or a comparable flat tappet grind - and NO break in! Friend of mine is doing a Pontiac 400 build up with Edelbrock heads and a Comp solid street roller package. Thing should be a beast. I've seen very similar combos dyno at 625, this one should be 550+ easy. Well, back to cams. IMHO, it's the change in oil formulations that have caused most of the flat tappet cam break-in failures. Experienced engine builders are having flat tappets fail now, not just shadetree types. Change in oil combined with off-shore lifters is where I think the problem is. My recommendation: go roller! "Once you go roller you never go flat"

 

[BrianWC]

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From what I have been told and have read, with the exception of the ultra high dollar cams, all the cam blanks are made by one or two companies anyway. If crane has a problem with the metal, my guess is that several other brands would too.

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Yes, that was in the HOTROD article although everyone seems to have subliminally blocked it with a giant flashing "I NEED ROTELLA" neon sign.

 

[Patman]

I wish this myth that synthetic oil is more "slippery" than conventional would just go away! If it were true, we'd see significantly lower engine wear in UOAs on here, but that's not the case. We've seen 5k runs with conventional oil where the wear numbers were zeros and 1s across the board.

 

[tdi-rick]

there's a long thread here http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...0&fpart=all on mineral vs synth in flat tappet cam engines.

my take

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...a control cam was introduced, ground and cam doctored by MI in Melbourne. These engines spin to over 7000RPM with a single (mandated) valve spring, which is a big compromise compared to using dual springs.
Not long after, most nearly everyone started to have lifter failures, regardless of oil used. If there was a slight mis match between lifter radius and lobe taper, lifters wouldn't rotate, or not rotate adequately resulting in immediate failure, particularly if not run in adequately. We actually built a cam run in rig so that we could ensure this was all ok before firing up a newly built engine and then running in the cam. We also rejected lots of lifters (insufficient radius) before installation. We also never had a cam related failure ever using oils ranging from Neo 0W-5 (which is what I ran) through Castrol SLX to BP Visco 5000. Prior to this BP Corse 30 was the gun oil, but HP, torque, engine wear and ability to handle higher oil temps was better with the synthetics. Corse 30 fell over dramatically at around 105-110*C, which is easy to acheve, so keeping it cool was an issue. The only changes when running the synthetics, particularly with the 0W-5 was finer bore finishes, plateu honing and dramatically tighten up of bearing clearances, all of which are pretty basic when using a lighter oil.

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from ferndog, who is an R&D team leader at Shell/Penn/Quaker

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If the engine has flat tappet, sliding followers, the cam lobe/tappet interface should NOT see any impact due to oil viscosity. In this interface, the high spring pressures and small area of contact are stong enough to squeeze the oil out of the way. Only the additive chemistry can protect. (Roller followers do get some help from viscosity.)

In addition to spring pressure, consider the cam profile and the metallurgy of the hardware. To throw in a newer wrinkle, coatings, on tappets can impact which chemistry works best....

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and John R

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The problem is with the lifters/tappets not the lack of ZDDP. It's manufacturing issue. This post below was written by someone who spent 12 years with Speed Pro/Federal-Mogul on a forum that has a lot of industry professionals.

"Good timing on this. Who is your current supplier?

The lifter question has been a hot topic here on and off for quite a while. I (and others) had taken to seeking out OE suppliers on them due to the rampant quality issues and cam failures everybody had been experiencing. I think most folks have come to the conclusion that there are a host of reasons that all came together at the same time to bring the issue to the forefront.

One of those threads actually led to my having the owner of HyLift call me on the phone to discuss the situation - - just in case you were thinking that industry folks don't pay attention to these forums! What he told me was interesting, pertains to the issue at hand, and will definitely change my personal lifter purchasing habits in the near future.

In a nutshell, he purchased the remaining assets of the HyLift company after prior management ran it into the ground. After a couple years of hard work trying to resurrect the old plant - he decided to start over with a brand new manufacturing facility in Michigan. Since they've reopened, he noted that he has many of the original HyLift employees back on staff, has contracted with the original casting supplier, and is making the product to meet or exceed the quality of the old parts. He invited me to visit the plant (something I'd really like to do at some point - and an indication of his obvious pride in the product and facility).

In my eyes this is effectively the light at the end of the "lifter tunnel" and as somebody who sells a low cost house brand of those "old school" flat tappet cams for street cars, I will very likely be moving to HyLift as my future lifter supplier."

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[Ferndog]

A new engine can be broken in on synthetic oil - but I would always recommend following the warranty requirements for the sake of the warranty.

If you think of it this way, how many new cars roll off the assembly line with a full synthetic oil? I have yet to find an SAE paper that proves that a change in base oil alone (all other things being constant like additives and viscosity) impacts an engine breaking in.

But at the same time, of all the professional and grass roots race teams we work with, virtually every single one uses conventional oil to break in a new engine. Given the dollars and hours they put into their engine builds, and given any manufacturer's warranty, I say stick with what makes you and your manufacturer comfortable.

 

[Rand]

2 things here.. Car engines are rollerized.
they are broke in at the factory.

Race engines are much more powerful and maybe old tech.
(not roller)
I am sure some race engines could be broke in on syn.
but when you will be dumping it shortly why bother?

Quote:

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A new engine can be broken in on synthetic oil - but I would always recommend following the warranty requirements for the sake of the warranty.

If you think of it this way, how many new cars roll off the assembly line with a full synthetic oil? I have yet to find an SAE paper that proves that a change in base oil alone (all other things being constant like additives and viscosity) impacts an engine breaking in.

But at the same time, of all the professional and grass roots race teams we work with, virtually every single one uses conventional oil to break in a new engine. Given the dollars and hours they put into their engine builds, and given any manufacturer's warranty, I say stick with what makes you and your manufacturer comfortable.

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[wgtoys]

You know it is kind of funny. There are lots of folks who say that there are no advantages to running a synthetic oil and that it doesn't reduce wear or friction. Then there are lots of folks like Crane who say that a synthetic oil is too good and will cause problems with break-in, etc. by not having enough friction. It seems obvious that both groups cannot be correct.