Counterfeit products

[eljefino]

Originally Posted by Garak
Theft of intellectual property doesn't necessarily involve theft of customers. I mean theft of design, theft of trademarks, that sort of thing. Theft of R&D is also part of this, and a real thing. That's why patents exist. If Honda doesn't mind someone copying their engines, that's up to them. That doesn't mean other companies won't vigorously defend their copyright, nor does it make it right in any sense of the word.


Honda wanted to sell Honda engines in China. China said okay, but we're going to make a co-venture, and you'll be showing us the techniques in our factory. They aren't dumb-- they know that they're "adding value" to a slab of raw material. Samuel Slater stole British intellectual property so the nascent US could mill cloth vs just exporting cotton.

 

[Garak]

With what you say, and eljefino say, that fits with much of my point. That's why we see these things going on mostly from foreign sources, foreign retailers. I can easily find counterfeit items online. Finding them locally, or marketting them locally, is much more problematic. When I buy items, though, I'm buying a lot closer to the original source, eliminating as many middle men as I can.

 

[camrydriver111]

Nobody believes they are getting a real Rolex for $200. Fakes are commonly marketed as real and priced at 60% or 70% of the real price to rip people off. You only need to scam one person to make a few thousand dollars.

Rolex also uses proprietary movements. For watches that use a generic movement ETA like Panerai, the fakes are extremely hard to tell apart from the real ones because China can clone their movements.

You've also chosen the most extreme example: fake $200 Rolex vs. a $35,000 solid gold real one.

How about fake Ray Bans and Coach purses/wallets? $75 for the fake. $150 for the real.

People who don't know any better will go online to save a few bucks and get ripped off. I don't buy the two markets don't overlap arguments.

 

[PimTac]

There is a current thread over in the Virgin Oil Analysis section that might tie right in with this subject.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...synthetic-5w-30-new-baseline#Post4859620

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by camrydriver111
How about fake Ray Bans and Coach purses/wallets? $75 for the fake. $150 for the real.

This, too. Sunglasses, oil, filters, auto parts in general. If I'm buying Mobil 1, I don't want Mobile 1.

Sure, people might not confuse the Rolex bit (some will, because they simply don't know any better, but that's another matter). But, counterfeiting is counterfeiting.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by camrydriver111
You've also chosen the most extreme example: fake $200 Rolex vs. a $35,000 solid gold real one. How about fake Ray Bans and Coach purses/wallets? $75 for the fake. $150 for the real. People who don't know any better will go online to save a few bucks and get ripped off.


What about them? You just answered your own question. The same thing applies. If you want to be assured you are purchasing the real deal of any product that is commonly faked, like the one's you just mentioned, DO NOT purchase it from Amazon. You buy it from a reputable store front dealer, or else the same who has reputable on line sales as well, that you know and trust. Along with a well established refund policy.

For example. Some months back I purchased a reproduction Atlas Bi-Pod on Amazon. I paid somewhere around $30.00 for it, give or take. A genuine Atlas Bi-Pod sells anywhere from $279.00 to $325.00 depending on the model. I knew I was purchasing a reproduction, and not the real deal.

They had supposed "real" Atlas models on the same page that were selling for the prices I just mentioned. The comments section was full of complaints from people who were sold fakes for the full price. These people were ripe for the picking, and they got scammed. If they wanted a genuine Atlas Bi-Pod, and they were obviously willing to part with the money to purchase one, they should have purchased it from a reputable outfit like Midway USA. Or else several other well established shooting supply stores....... Not Amazon.

This hold true regardless of the product you are buying. Be it sunglasses, watches, or women's purses.

 

[Shannow]

A reproduction is a modern day revision of something that is no longer made.
A rip off is stealing someone's current IP, producing it in a sweatshop somewhere, and selling it to cheapskates.

They are NOT the same thing.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by camrydriver111
Nobody believes they are getting a real Rolex for $200. Fakes are commonly marketed as real and priced at 60% or 70% of the real price to rip people off. You only need to scam one person to make a few thousand dollars.

Rolex also uses proprietary movements. For watches that use a generic movement ETA like Panerai, the fakes are extremely hard to tell apart from the real ones because China can clone their movements.

You've also chosen the most extreme example: fake $200 Rolex vs. a $35,000 solid gold real one.

How about fake Ray Bans and Coach purses/wallets? $75 for the fake. $150 for the real.

People who don't know any better will go online to save a few bucks and get ripped off. I don't buy the two markets don't overlap arguments.


Years ago I read a story where ETA had sold thousands of their basic movements to Asia which ended up being inserted in fake Rolex's. The movements were always the weak spot for fakes but not anymore.

 

[camrydriver111]

Can you easily tell which one is $300 and which one is $5,000?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by camrydriver111
Can you easily tell which one is $300 and which one is $5,000?


Unbelievable! Certainly not $4,700 worth of difference in a Stainless Steel watch.

 

[Uphill_Both_Ways]

Why would anyone send money for a known fake when the entity selling it is known to have no scruples? The buyer could end up with nothing, or worse, a picture of the item sent for a laugh. There's no recourse. China wouldn't give a rat's gluteus maximus.

Originally Posted by camrydriver111
Can you easily tell which one is $300 and which one is $5,000?

The fake's instructions, if any, are a machine translation from Mandarin.

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways

Why would anyone send money for a known fake when the entity selling it is known to have no scruples? The buyer could end up with nothing, or worse, a picture of the item sent for a laugh. There's no recourse. China wouldn't give a rat's gluteus maximus.

Originally Posted by camrydriver111
Can you easily tell which one is $300 and which one is $5,000?

The fake's instructions, if any, are a machine translation from Mandarin.


My Chinese Rolex cost me $15. The Chinese take great pride in their reproductions.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways

Why would anyone send money for a known fake when the entity selling it is known to have no scruples?

Who has fewer scruples? The producer of the fake..... Or Rolex? Because it's hard to determine which one is the bigger thief. The so called, "rip off artist" who gives you a really nice reproduction watch for around $300.00..... Or Rolex who is obviously overcharging it's customers 16 fold, for what amounts to almost the same thing? Or at least so close you have to be an expert on the subject, with a magnifying glass to tell the difference.

And keep in mind Rolex is about the crummiest time keeping watch in existence. You can go buy the cheapest $25.00 Timex with a generic quartz movement, and it will be 100 times more accurate than the most expensive Rolex.

So that leaves us with the name, and the craftsmanship behind it. Yes, as the video shows, the Rolex has somewhat better detail and quality. Again, this is providing you have the magnifying glass, along with the expertise to detect it. And know what to look for. But does anyone actually think it amounts to $4,700.00 worth of "better"?

You can hate this practice of fakes, clones, "rip offs", reproductions, or whatever name you want to tag it with. Or you can accept it, or even embrace it. It really doesn't matter. When something can be cloned, faked, or whatever for 16 times less, like it or not it's going to happen. The larger the price spread between the fake and the real deal, the more the original company is daring for this to happen. Again, regardless if it's legal or not, or if you as a consumer like it or not. If there is a market for something, there will be someone to provide for that market. Both Al Capone and Pablo Escobar proved that. That's the reality of it.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Leo99
My Chinese Rolex cost me $15. The Chinese take great pride in their reproductions.

And you are 100% correct in calling it a, "reproduction".

re·pro·duc·tion

/ˌrēprəˈdəkSH(ə)n/

noun

noun: reproduction

"the action or process of making a copy of something."


https://www.google.com/search?sourc...gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131.UhizCQ1GTV4

 

[Shannow]

Oh, I love watching these flip flops...

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rip--off

Quote
noun Slang.
an act or instance of ripping off another or others;
1) a theft, cheat, or swindle.
20 exploitation, especially of those who cannot prevent or counter it.
3) a copy or imitation.


Seems to fit all of your arguments so far...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by billt460
If someone is stupid enough to actually believe they're getting an original Rolex for $200.00, then they deserve to be scammed.


Originally Posted by billt460

Who has fewer scruples? The producer of the fake..... Or Rolex? Because it's hard to determine which one is the bigger thief. The so called, "rip off artist" who gives you a really nice reproduction watch for around $300.00..... Or Rolex who is obviously overcharging it's customers 16 fold, for what amounts to almost the same thing? Or at least so close you have to be an expert on the subject, with a magnifying glass to tell the difference.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/flip-flop?s=t


Quote
noun
Informal.
1) a sudden or unexpected reversal, as of direction, belief, attitude, or policy.
2) a backward somersault.
3) Also called flip-flop circuit. Electronics. an electronic circuit having two stable conditions, each one corresponding to one of two alternative input signals.

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Leo99
My Chinese Rolex cost me $15. The Chinese take great pride in their reproductions.

And you are 100% correct in calling it a, "reproduction".

re·pro·duc·tion

/ˌrēprəˈdəkSH(ə)n/

noun

noun: reproduction

"the action or process of making a copy of something."


https://www.google.com/search?sourc...gws-wiz.....0..0j35i39j0i131.UhizCQ1GTV4


My mistake. I mean replications.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Shannow
A reproduction is a modern day revision of something that is no longer made.


Wrong........ As usual.

 

[Shannow]

No I'm not, and I'll use your Cobra example.

A "Replica" is fibreglass, uses it's own spaceframe, chassis components, any sort of drivetrain
A "Reproduction" would be using the original design frame, alloy body, and running gear as the original. Either copied faithfully off an original, or using original drawings, mouldings and jigs.

There's a difference...and clearly neither the Rolex, not your firearms accessories are "reproduction"

 

[Uphill_Both_Ways]

Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Uphill_Both_Ways

Why would anyone send money for a known fake when the entity selling it is known to have no scruples?

Who has fewer scruples? The producer of the fake..... Or Rolex? Because it's hard to determine which one is the bigger thief.



Again, regardless if it's legal or not, or if you as a consumer like it or not. If there is a market for something, there will be someone to provide for that market. Both Al Capone and Pablo Escobar proved that. That's the reality of it.


Scruple
noun
1. a moral or ethical consideration or standard that acts as a restraining force or inhibits certain actions.

So everyone might as well be thieves, thugs, kidnappers mass murderers and purveyors of cheap knockoffs, since Al Capone and Pablo Escobar proved no one's scruples are higher than theirs because there's a market for booze and drugs.

Now all we need is the tin man and cowardly lion.