Couldn't Deposit $1000 for Tesla Model 3 !

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Some states require zero emission vehicles for sale in state, California requires 15% ZEV by 2025.

Currently only 2 types of ZEV are available: Battery EV and Fuel Cell EV. Toyota has FCEV and Honda will have 1 by end of this year.

The problem with FCEV is infrastructure, only CA has few hydrogen stations and all other states have none and cost of a hydrogen station can be as much as $1 mil.

So the Battery EV is here to stay. Almost all big companies are making or will be making some BEV in near future.

Fiat CEO clearly said that he lost $14k for every Fiat 500e sold, but they have to make it because state governments require it.


Which changes exactly what about the fact that the big auto makers had exactly no need to make a serious competitor to Tesla cars?

They're making their bread and butter without a single one of them. That government has to force them to build ZEV's only reinforces my point that big auto makers have exactly no incentive to compete with Tesla besides a gun to their head.

Quote:
Tesla is playing the long game too, why did they invest $5 billions building Gigafatory in Nevada ? Musk said that to build 500k EV in 2020 it would need all li-ion batteries that the world is capable of. So he invested $5 billions to make batteries that Tesla needs in 2020.


Elon Musk has been caught with his pants down enough times in a very short history that it is clear he does not take the long-game nearly as seriously as most of the big auto manufacturers.

Quote:
Audi, Porsche ... are about to make some EV's with similar performance and driving range of Tesla model S P85, they plan to have those cars by 2018 or 2019, 5-6 years after model S was first sold in 2013.

Probably only after they saw the sale figure of Tesla model S in 2014 and 2015. Model S was the only full size luxury had sale increase in 2015 from 2014, all others had sale decrease. Model S also was the best selling full size luxury car in US, regardless what type of engine.


Weren't you the one who just pointed out that the motivation for building ZEV's is government ransom?

Quote:

Model 3 will have supercharger capability, but to use it owner must buy the option and probably about $2k as it was the option with the base model S when they first had it in 2013, then they dropped the option and included it in the price of all model S.

Yes, the biggest obstacle Tesla faces is manufacture hundreds thousands vehicles at Fremont plan in California, they also need to do better job in selecting/qualifying part vendors.


Which is a very interesting situation for a boutique exotic car builder who plans take a lion's share of the motor vehicle market in only a couple of years.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Which changes exactly what about the fact that the big auto makers had exactly no need to make a serious competitor to Tesla cars?

They're making their bread and butter without a single one of them. That government has to force them to build ZEV's only reinforces my point that big auto makers have exactly no incentive to compete with Tesla besides a gun to their head.

Time is changing, laws and regulations are changing, all car manufacturers are needed to comply to new laws/regulations. Zero emission vehicle is needed to satisfy new regulations of many countries and many states in US. Norway is planning to restrict non-ZEV to no more than 50% as early as 2025, Netherlands may ban all non-ZEV as early as 2020, some other countries may follow.

To compete with Tesla or not all manufactures like to minimize their overhead cost in ZEV, one way to do it is have a ZEV for sale at reasonable price to get higher volume.

If model 3 costs only $35k with 215 miles range, do you think people will rush to by brand x model z for $40 and the driving range is only 100 miles ?

Everybody knows that ZEV is very inconvenience for long travel, why don't they line up at BMW dealers to get 328i for the same $35k, why 400k people deposit $1k and wait up to 2-3 years or longer to get their hands on model 3 ?

Can you explain why sale of all full size luxury brands dropped in 2015, only Tesla Model S was up ?

Not only Tesla model S was the best selling full size luxury sedan in 2015, it was the best selling EV of any price too.

If Tesla didn't exit, chance is that Audi, Porsche ... would not spend billion(s) to develop 200-300 miles BEV.

You may not like Tesla(you probably hate Elon Musk too), but he is the one who disrupts the automotive industry.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Which changes exactly what about the fact that the big auto makers had exactly no need to make a serious competitor to Tesla cars?

They're making their bread and butter without a single one of them. That government has to force them to build ZEV's only reinforces my point that big auto makers have exactly no incentive to compete with Tesla besides a gun to their head.

Time is changing, laws and regulations are changing, all car manufacturers are needed to comply to new laws/regulations. Zero emission vehicle is needed to satisfy new regulations of many countries and many states in US. Norway is planning to restrict non-ZEV to no more than 50% as early as 2025, Netherlands may ban all non-ZEV as early as 2020, some other countries may follow.

To compete with Tesla or not all manufactures like to minimize their overhead cost in ZEV, one way to do it is have a ZEV for sale at reasonable price to get higher volume.

If model 3 costs only $35k with 215 miles range, do you think people will rush to by brand x model z for $40 and the driving range is only 100 miles ?

Everybody knows that ZEV is very inconvenience for long travel, why don't they line up at BMW dealers to get 328i for the same $35k, why 400k people deposit $1k and wait up to 2-3 years or longer to get their hands on model 3 ?

Can you explain why sale of all full size luxury brands dropped in 2015, only Tesla Model S was up ?

Not only Tesla model S was the best selling full size luxury sedan in 2015, it was the best selling EV of any price too.

If Tesla didn't exit, chance is that Audi, Porsche ... would not spend billion(s) to develop 200-300 miles BEV.

You may not like Tesla(you probably hate Elon Musk too), but he is the one who disrupts the automotive industry.

You are seriously detached from reality.
Netherlands will ban non-ZEV vehicles? Yes, when MB, BMW, VW and others say: yes, you can do it.
All EU is behind the US on NoX regulations because those manufacturers have more say in it then Netherlands! Half of Netherlands works for those companies.
When German big three says: yes you can do it, then we can talk about it.
Only thing that Netherlands or Denmark can do is limit some cars in some downtown. Unless European council says otherwise, no country in the EU can limit anything.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Time is changing, laws and regulations are changing, all car manufacturers are needed to comply to new laws/regulations. Zero emission vehicle is needed to satisfy new regulations of many countries and many states in US. Norway is planning to restrict non-ZEV to no more than 50% as early as 2025, Netherlands may ban all non-ZEV as early as 2020, some other countries may follow.

To compete with Tesla or not all manufactures like to minimize their overhead cost in ZEV, one way to do it is have a ZEV for sale at reasonable price to get higher volume.

If model 3 costs only $35k with 215 miles range, do you think people will rush to by brand x model z for $40 and the driving range is only 100 miles ?

Everybody knows that ZEV is very inconvenience for long travel, why don't they line up at BMW dealers to get 328i for the same $35k, why 400k people deposit $1k and wait up to 2-3 years or longer to get their hands on model 3 ?

Can you explain why sale of all full size luxury brands dropped in 2015, only Tesla Model S was up ?

Not only Tesla model S was the best selling full size luxury sedan in 2015, it was the best selling EV of any price too.

If Tesla didn't exit, chance is that Audi, Porsche ... would not spend billion(s) to develop 200-300 miles BEV.

You may not like Tesla(you probably hate Elon Musk too), but he is the one who disrupts the automotive industry.

You are seriously detached from reality.
Netherlands will ban non-ZEV vehicles? Yes, when MB, BMW, VW and others say: yes, you can do it.
All EU is behind the US on NoX regulations because those manufacturers have more say in it then Netherlands! Half of Netherlands works for those companies.
When German big three says: yes you can do it, then we can talk about it.
Only thing that Netherlands or Denmark can do is limit some cars in some downtown. Unless European council says otherwise, no country in the EU can limit anything.

I was wrong about "Netherlands may ban all non-ZEV as early as 2020". The correction is "Netherlands looks to ban all non-electric cars by 2025"

The year was wrong, 2025 not 2020, and non-electric cars not non-ZEV.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/201...ic-cars-by-2025

I was wrong about "Norway is planning to restrict non-ZEV to no more than 50% as early as 2025". The correction is: "Norway's Goal: All New Cars Will Be Emission-Free By 2025 To Cut Carbon"

The year is correct but 100% not 50% ZEV.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099...5-to-cut-carbon

Also, I said "Norway is planning" and "Netherlands may ban". I think you understand the meaning of the words "planning" and "may ban".

Another point: I said I read and these are what I read from, if the story they had was make up then I had no idea why they did.

 

[edyvw]

Another point is EU council needs to agree on that. Good luck!
Another point is: lobbying is interesting thing!

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Another point is EU council needs to agree on that. Good luck!

I didn't know that Netherlands needs approval from EU council in banning new ICE vehicle on sale in their country.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Another point is: lobbying is interesting thing!

I have no idea what are you talking about this "lobbying". According to the article I linked, there wasn't any group lobbying any Dutch politician about banning ICE vehicle.

 

[KrisZ]

Emission free utopia, I just can't wait for it. I guess people walking, running, exercising etc. will emit more CO2 than those wonderful cars, so you know what's coming up next, right?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Another point is EU council needs to agree on that. Good luck!

I didn't know that Netherlands needs approval from EU council in banning new ICE vehicle on sale in their country.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Another point is: lobbying is interesting thing!

I have no idea what are you talking about this "lobbying". According to the article I linked, there wasn't any group lobbying any Dutch politician about banning ICE vehicle.

I now you do not have idea.
Half of Netherlands work for German car manufacturers and French manufacturers.
Europeans get this idea very often. However, if you are trying to make a case for the U.S. you are very naive. Hypothetically lets say Netherlands bans ICE, Netherlands is smaller then West Virginia with highly developed public transportation system. Why that matters for us? We are country where ICE will stay for a long time in use.
Also, the fact that these countries considering this is how connected to Tesla? Tesla does not own technology which is behind Toyota and other manufacturers.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I know you do not have idea.
Half of Netherlands work for German car manufacturers and French manufacturers.
Europeans get this idea very often. However, if you are trying to make a case for the U.S. you are very naive. Hypothetically lets say Netherlands bans ICE, Netherlands is smaller then West Virginia with highly developed public transportation system. Why that matters for us? We are country where ICE will stay for a long time in use.
Also, the fact that these countries considering this is how connected to Tesla? Tesla does not own technology which is behind Toyota and other manufacturers.

More US states and more counties around the world will restrict highly emission vehicles, this is the trend. Norway and Netherlands are the first two considering banning ICE altogether. Many countries have incentives for plug-in vehicles(plug-in hybrid and EV). With good incentives the cost of an EV can be as low as regular ICE, this will increase demand and Tesla will be in good position to satisfy this demand.

If you're looking at all automakers' plan for the next 20-30 years, all of them plan to have more than 20-30% all vehicles either hybrid, plug-in hybrid or zero emission(EV or Fuel Cell). Some companies even suggest that 50% of all their vehicles will not be ICE only. By 2040-2050 global EV market share for new vehicles can be at high as 30-50%.

There are more pure-EV companies are popping up lately. Faraday Future is building a billion dollar plant in Nevada, a Chinese company is showing an EV called "LeSEE" in China yesterday.

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/04/20...ctric-car-race/


The main opponent of this trend is the oil industry, they are lobbying hard to eliminate EV incentive. But I don't think they will success, some type of zero emission vehicles will be with us, most likely BEV.

If Tesla executes their plan correctly they will be hard to knock down. The evidence is they have 400,000 pre-orders for model 3 in less than a moth, some predicted that the order can be as high as 1 million by end of 2017 when the first production model 3 roll out of assembly line.

Germany and EV:
Quote:
Germany, the birthplace of Volkswagen, Porsche, and BMW, plans to become a global leader for developing low-carbon vehicles.

The country will increase electric vehicle production from less than 2,000 units currently to 1 million units by 2020 and 5 million units by 2030, aided by some 500 million euros (US$705 million) in research funding through 2020, the government announced last month.

"The federal government's target is to make Germany the leading market for electric mobility," the Environment Ministry said in a statement. "Power for electrically driven vehicles can be generated from a number of primary energy sources, thus helping to promote independence from oil imports and fluctuating petrol prices."


http://www.worldwatch.org/node/6251


A good read:
Quote:
German Brands Are Finally Taking Tesla Seriously, but Could It Be Too Late?

There's no doubt that Tesla is nothing else but a party crusher as far as German car manufacturers are concerned. There they were, ruling the automotive industry with their technical prowess and impeccable engineering, when a small company from California decided to revolutionize the automobile and give it a fresh start.


Quote:
That's not exactly what the Germans wanted after over a hundred years of progress in a certain direction. Sure, the new car proposed by Tesla still has four wheels, a chassis, a suspension system, and all the other major components that have been refined over the course of time. The Germans still arguably know best how to do all that, but it's the core of the vehicle that's changing. The thing that makes it go forward, go fast and go long isn't what Hans and Schultz have learned to build and tweak to perfection until now.

The fact that one of them decided to fool the world about the performances of its engines by installing a defeat device didn't help Germany's car industry case, nor that of the internal combustion engine, and the Dieselgate scandal couldn't have dropped any better for Tesla. In this context, Edzard Reuter's - a former Daimler CEO - statement from November can only be described as a clear case of denial and/or infatuation: "[Tesla is] a joke that can't be taken seriously compared to the great car companies of Germany."


Quote:
The truth is the only reason German companies didn't think electric cars would catch on was because they couldn't build a decent one. And, of course, if they couldn't, nobody else could. With their ranges of no more than 100 miles (160 km), cars such as the BMW i3, the Mercedes-Benz B-Class or the Volkswagen e-Golf have now become the joke compared to the 250 miles offered by the Tesla Model S.

And it's not just about the car. Tesla had a holistic approach and focused on building an infrastructure as well as the vehicles themselves. That's how it managed to beat the Germans on their own soil by selling more EVs than any other local brand: 1,582 Model S units in 2015 compared to 1,051 BMW i3s, 1,161 electric Mercedes-Benzes, 676 units of smart fortwo electric drive, and 796 Volkswagen e-Golfs.


http://www.autoevolution.com/news/german...ate-106688.html

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Emission free utopia, I just can't wait for it. I guess people walking, running, exercising etc. will emit more CO2 than those wonderful cars, so you know what's coming up next, right?

So you think that people exercising will emit more CO2 than a gas car engine? Seriously?

To equal my cars yearly carbon emission of about 2000kg a year, I'd have to exercise at maximum effort for 5600 hrs per year... A person at rest only emits about 10% of what they do at maximum as well.
Also I should be eating mostly renewable carbon in my food, instead of fossil fuels.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm interested in how they plan on powering all of this and whether the current polluting methods of power generation will be factored into the "green" side. After all, it takes power to get the materials out of the ground, process them, build the vehicle, build the batteries....etc. And then there is charging them.

Germany is back to burning copious amounts of coal since they shuttered their nukes. Denmark feigns "green" but in reality, only get ~35% of their power from their massive installed wind turbine base and buys the remainder from their interconnected neighbours. This means they are buying the majority of their power from places generating it with nukes or coal. And they pay the highest rates in Europe for that privilege, or roughly 45c/KWH.

And then we have transport trucks, for which there is currently no EV equivalent and burn obscene amounts of fuel. Same with the massive tankers burning bunker fuel dragging all this tripe over from China.

And then there are the ever increasing electricity rates.....

 

[HTSS_TR]

I have no idea how do they and us solve this totally messy thing.

Zero tail pipe emission vehicle is just a tiny fraction of a complete picture of reducing pollution and green house gas.

Changing from burning tens of millions barrels of oil a day to powering millions EV is not an easy task. No single individual or company can do it, this needs national policies and special interests will fight one another to get a piece of the pie.

Note: Southern California Edison is planning a big electric vehicle charging station push here in Southern California, saying it plans to install as many as 1,500 new electric vehicle charging stations in its service territory, and offer up rebates to users who install them.

It plans to ask the California Public Utilities Commission to expand the program to around 30,000 charging stations, at a cost of $355M after the pilot.

http://socaltech.com/sce_plans_ev_charger_rebates_big_ev_charger_install_push/s-0063543.html

How do they supply power to these 30,000 charging stations ? We are already had some blackout last few years, we don't produce enough power in state so we import 10-15% last few year.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Time is changing, laws and regulations are changing, all car manufacturers are needed to comply to new laws/regulations. Zero emission vehicle is needed to satisfy new regulations of many countries and many states in US.


Which changes what about the fact that there was absolutely no necessity to compete with Tesla, a company that has nearly gone under since the first day of opening its doors?

Quote:
Norway is planning to restrict non-ZEV to no more than 50% as early as 2025, Netherlands may ban all non-ZEV as early as 2020, some other countries may follow.


BULL. ****ING. ***T.

Quote:
To compete with Tesla or not all manufactures like to minimize their overhead cost in ZEV, one way to do it is have a ZEV for sale at reasonable price to get higher volume.


Which changes what about the fact that there was absolutely no necessity to compete with Tesla, a company that has nearly gone under since the first day of opening its doors?

Quote:
If model 3 costs only $35k with 215 miles range, do you think people will rush to by brand x model z for $40 and the driving range is only 100 miles ?


If the queen had testes, would she be the king? That car does not exist yet.

Quote:
Everybody knows that ZEV is very inconvenience for long travel, why don't they line up at BMW dealers to get 328i for the same $35k, why 400k people deposit $1k and wait up to 2-3 years or longer to get their hands on model 3 ?


Because you don't have to line up or pay a deposit to get a 328i, because it actually exists in very large quantities.

Quote:
Can you explain why sale of all full size luxury brands dropped in 2015, only Tesla Model S was up ?


Because the buyers of a Model S already have an S-Class, 7-series, A8, or other full size luxury car. You don't seriously believe that the Model S is the only car parked in their 7-car garage, do you?

Quote:
Not only Tesla model S was the best selling full size luxury sedan in 2015, it was the best selling EV of any price too.


Because nobody is trying to take on that money-pit.

Quote:
If Tesla didn't exit, chance is that Audi, Porsche ... would not spend billion(s) to develop 200-300 miles BEV.


Weren't you the one who just said the drive behind BEV was government ransom? Now it's the amazing money-losing competition from Tesla?

Quote:
You may not like Tesla(you probably hate Elon Musk too), but he is the one who disrupts the automotive industry.


Weren't you the one who just said the drive behind BEV was government ransom? Now it's the amazing money-losing competition from Tesla?

 

[HTSS_TR]

Quote:
It wasn't long ago when the German car industry was still laughing out loud about Elon Musk and his Tesla Motors electric car company.

The proud makers of the world's top-selling luxury brands such as Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Porsche could not fathom how a small-time, loss-making upstart from California could ever compete with the giants of the industry that had a century and a half of experience and expertise. In November, a former Daimler chairman, Edzard Reuter, even called Tesla "a joke that can't be taken seriously compared to the great car companies of Germany" and dismissed Musk as a "pretender".



Quote:
Some in Germany are now, rather belatedly, seeing Tesla as a long-term threat to the pride and joy of the country's economy: the car industry that employs 750,000 workers and indirectly accounts for 1 in 8 jobs.

"Germans have an enormous amount of pride in their engineering skills and believe they know everything that needs to be known about cars," he said. "They used to think there was no way that anyone could possibly build cars as well as they do. And then along comes this young punk in California. They thought he didn't have a clue about cars and treated him like a joke. And now they're seeing that he's leading the revolution."



Quote:
The success in Germany and elsewhere of Tesla's purely electric Model S, which has a range of about 250 miles, proved the hybrid theory wrong.

And German all-electric models with inferior ranges have had disappointing sales, paling in comparison with the much higher-priced Tesla. The all-electric BMW i3 has a range of just 81 miles, Mercedes' electric B Class has a range of 87 miles, VW's all-electric Golf can go 83 miles per charge, and the third-generation Smart EV has a range of 68 miles.


Quote:
Dieter Zetsche, the chairman of Daimler AG, conceded this month that "Tesla has promised a lot but has also delivered most of it" and said there was now a lot of excitement in the industry about the "overall appearance and approach Tesla is taking."

Zetsche said his company was now looking to deliver an all-electric car with a range of up to 310 miles.

"There is no doubt that getting new momentum from a new player is good," Zetsche said at a meeting with journalists in France.

Audi and Porsche plan to have EV with range up to 300 miles in production by 2018-2019.


Quote:
Tesla sold more electric cars in Germany last year than any other brand and proved to be a formidable competitor even before the launch of the Model 3, selling 1,582 Model S cars in Germany in 2015. That compares with sales of 1,051 BMW i3s, 1,161 all-electric Mercedes, 676 electric Smarts and 796 electric VW Golfs.

That prompted automakers such as Porsche and Audi to accelerate plans to bring their own all-electric cars to the market by the end of this decade after long expressing doubts there would be a sizable market for the cars.

Tesla sold more EV in US than any other brand too.

Quote:
The improbable popularity of the Tesla has touched a deep nerve in Germany, already reeling from last year's Volkwagen diesel-emissions scandal.

"German carmakers totally underestimated the potential of the all-electric vehicle and thought it was just a fad that would pass," said Juergen Resch, the head of the nonprofit Deutsche Umwelthilfe environment and consumer protection association. "And at the same time they've been pushing diesel engines with defeat devices."



Quote:
Germany is among the world's top four carmaking nations, a global market where some 78 million cars were produced last year. Volkswagen, Daimler, BMW, Audi and Porsche can still take comfort in the overall numbers: They produced 5.7 million cars in 2015 and another 9.4 million cars at their manufacturing plants abroad. Tesla, by comparison, delivered only 50,580 in 2015. It hopes to be making 500,000 cars a year by 2020.

Yet Tesla has become the bestselling luxury car in Western Europe, according to a report by Automotive Industry Data. It said that its data showed Tesla's Model S sales in Western European countries in 2015 hit 15,787 and for the first time surpassed Mercedes' S-Class, which sold 14,990 cars.

Model S was bestselling full size luxury car in US too.


Quote:
"German carmakers have been in denial that electric vehicles can create an emotional appeal to customers," said Arndt Ellinghorst, head of global automotive research at Evercore ISI. "Many still believe that Tesla is a sideshow catering to a niche product to some tree-hugging Californians and eccentric U.S. hedge fund managers. I'm sure German boardrooms are having some interesting discussions now."

The executives at Daimler got an earful from shareholders at the company's annual general meeting this month in Berlin. Several of the 5,500 present stood up to critically ask managers why they had been asleep as Tesla aggressively pushed forward into the all-electric market, and some wondered aloud if this was the beginning of the end of the German car industry.


Quote:
"We don't have anything that can really compete with it," complained Hans-Martin Buhlmann, representing the Vereinigung Institutioneller Privateanleger association of small shareholders at the AGM in Berlin.

Daimler Chairman Zetsche insisted his company and its German rivals had not missed the boat. He pointed out that Tesla has not earned any money and that its loss-making business was not something Daimler shareholders would accept.

Deutsche Bank Research car sector analyst Eric Heymann dismissed any doomsday scenario for German luxury carmakers but agreed Tesla was pushing them forward on the all-electric car. He said he believed they would quickly catch up.


Quote:
But Claudia Kemfert, head of energy, transport and environment at the German Institute for Economic Research in Berlin, said German carmakers have been arrogantly negligent to Tesla's challenge.

"German carmakers have completely misjudged the gigantic economic opportunities of sustainable mobility," she said. "The German car industry is in the process of squandering the chances for the future just like the big utilities blew their chances with renewable energy. Tesla is at the same time both a danger for German manufacturers, but it's also a wake-up call."


Many Germans in the know accept that Tesla is a real player, they also accept that Tesla did wake them up in the EV market and that they are playing catch up to Tesla standard.


http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-0419-tesla-germany-20160419-story.html

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Emission free utopia, I just can't wait for it. I guess people walking, running, exercising etc. will emit more CO2 than those wonderful cars, so you know what's coming up next, right?

So you think that people exercising will emit more CO2 than a gas car engine? Seriously?

To equal my cars yearly carbon emission of about 2000kg a year, I'd have to exercise at maximum effort for 5600 hrs per year... A person at rest only emits about 10% of what they do at maximum as well.
Also I should be eating mostly renewable carbon in my food, instead of fossil fuels.



I was talking about full electric vehicles, hence "emission free utopia" comment.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm interested in how they plan on powering all of this and whether the current polluting methods of power generation will be factored into the "green" side. After all, it takes power to get the materials out of the ground, process them, build the vehicle, build the batteries....etc. And then there is charging them.

Germany is back to burning copious amounts of coal since they shuttered their nukes. Denmark feigns "green" but in reality, only get ~35% of their power from their massive installed wind turbine base and buys the remainder from their interconnected neighbours. This means they are buying the majority of their power from places generating it with nukes or coal. And they pay the highest rates in Europe for that privilege, or roughly 45c/KWH.

And then we have transport trucks, for which there is currently no EV equivalent and burn obscene amounts of fuel. Same with the massive tankers burning bunker fuel dragging all this tripe over from China.

And then there are the ever increasing electricity rates.....

Soon I think the math will work out, even for my 60 miles a day commute to switch over to an electric car, solar array, and battery storage. Increase the price of gas a bit and we are there now.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm interested in how they plan on powering all of this and whether the current polluting methods of power generation will be factored into the "green" side. After all, it takes power to get the materials out of the ground, process them, build the vehicle, build the batteries....etc. And then there is charging them.

Germany is back to burning copious amounts of coal since they shuttered their nukes. Denmark feigns "green" but in reality, only get ~35% of their power from their massive installed wind turbine base and buys the remainder from their interconnected neighbours. This means they are buying the majority of their power from places generating it with nukes or coal. And they pay the highest rates in Europe for that privilege, or roughly 45c/KWH.

And then we have transport trucks, for which there is currently no EV equivalent and burn obscene amounts of fuel. Same with the massive tankers burning bunker fuel dragging all this tripe over from China.

And then there are the ever increasing electricity rates.....

Soon I think the math will work out, even for my 60 miles a day commute to switch over to an electric car, solar array, and battery storage. Increase the price of gas a bit and we are there now.


I look forward to your testing

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm interested in how they plan on powering all of this and whether the current polluting methods of power generation will be factored into the "green" side. After all, it takes power to get the materials out of the ground, process them, build the vehicle, build the batteries....etc. And then there is charging them.

Germany is back to burning copious amounts of coal since they shuttered their nukes. Denmark feigns "green" but in reality, only get ~35% of their power from their massive installed wind turbine base and buys the remainder from their interconnected neighbours. This means they are buying the majority of their power from places generating it with nukes or coal. And they pay the highest rates in Europe for that privilege, or roughly 45c/KWH.

And then we have transport trucks, for which there is currently no EV equivalent and burn obscene amounts of fuel. Same with the massive tankers burning bunker fuel dragging all this tripe over from China.

And then there are the ever increasing electricity rates.....

Soon I think the math will work out, even for my 60 miles a day commute to switch over to an electric car, solar array, and battery storage. Increase the price of gas a bit and we are there now.


I look forward to your testing

Soon! I think even now a $15k solar system would recharge an electric car overnight from my regular usage. Its just the lifespan of the batteries at home that's the question, how many relatively deep cycles they can handle. I spend about $2k/year on gas, so that starts to add up and that kind of money could maintain a pretty sizeable off grid system.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I'm interested in how they plan on powering all of this and whether the current polluting methods of power generation will be factored into the "green" side. After all, it takes power to get the materials out of the ground, process them, build the vehicle, build the batteries....etc. And then there is charging them.

Germany is back to burning copious amounts of coal since they shuttered their nukes. Denmark feigns "green" but in reality, only get ~35% of their power from their massive installed wind turbine base and buys the remainder from their interconnected neighbours. This means they are buying the majority of their power from places generating it with nukes or coal. And they pay the highest rates in Europe for that privilege, or roughly 45c/KWH.

And then we have transport trucks, for which there is currently no EV equivalent and burn obscene amounts of fuel. Same with the massive tankers burning bunker fuel dragging all this tripe over from China.

And then there are the ever increasing electricity rates.....

Soon I think the math will work out, even for my 60 miles a day commute to switch over to an electric car, solar array, and battery storage. Increase the price of gas a bit and we are there now.


I look forward to your testing

Soon! I think even now a $15k solar system would recharge an electric car overnight from my regular usage. Its just the lifespan of the batteries at home that's the question, how many relatively deep cycles they can handle. I spend about $2k/year on gas, so that starts to add up and that kind of money could maintain a pretty sizeable off grid system.


FWIW, my cousin took a Tesla down to the US and hit the SuperCharger stations on the way. They are 300A @ 400V (which is 120KW) or something? He said 16KW to charge it between stations? Obviously they didn't run it down very far. Would have to do the math on it, but I would imagine that would require a pretty substantial battery bank, particularly if you wanted to do more than charge a car with it. So then to charge that bank would require a pretty significant solar array.

Just doing some quick calculations, if you were using 1/4 charge every day (67.5 miles) of the 270 mile range, that SuperCharger is 60KWH (120KW, 30 minutes) to achieve full charge, you'd be using 1/4 of that, so 15KWH every night to charge it. If you drove it every day, that's 450KWH a month to charge it based on that usage profile. I use roughly 600KWH a month for my normal usage, so assuming your usage is similar, your total monthly profile would be 1,050KWH.

Using this calculator:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/start-here/offgrid-calculator

You would need an 8,333W solar bank. So 42x200W panels or if you went with their largest panels, 27x310W panels.

This 8.5KW system:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/1892870/wh...id-solar-system

Would then seem to fit the bill at around $20K USD and then an additional cost of the battery bank at ~10K.

So you'd be into about 30K USD total (or roughly 45K Canadian) from the looks of things to be completely off HydroONE if your usage is in-line with what I've posted. Now the panels last supposedly 15-20 years, the inverter setup should last basically forever, but the batteries will have a finite lifespan as well, and if you are discharging them heavily to charge the car and run your gear every night, I'm not sure how that affects it?

But say the battery bank lasts 5 years, that's $10K every 5 years, or 2K a year. If the solar panels are 20K, that's another 1K a year to account for (or more if they don't last 20 years). So at minimum you are out 3K a year on maintenance for the system assuming the inverter doesn't ever die.

And this all assumes that you pay more than 3K a year for hydro to make this economically viable

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

FWIW, my cousin took a Tesla down to the US and hit the SuperCharger stations on the way. They are 300A @ 400V (which is 120KW) or something? He said 16KW to charge it between stations? Obviously they didn't run it down very far. Would have to do the math on it, but I would imagine that would require a pretty substantial battery bank, particularly if you wanted to do more than charge a car with it. So then to charge that bank would require a pretty significant solar array.

Just doing some quick calculations, if you were using 1/4 charge every day (67.5 miles) of the 270 mile range, that SuperCharger is 60KWH (120KW, 30 minutes) to achieve full charge, you'd be using 1/4 of that, so 15KWH every night to charge it. If you drove it every day, that's 450KWH a month to charge it based on that usage profile. I use roughly 600KWH a month for my normal usage, so assuming your usage is similar, your total monthly profile would be 1,050KWH.

Using this calculator:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/start-here/offgrid-calculator

You would need an 8,333W solar bank. So 42x200W panels or if you went with their largest panels, 27x310W panels.

This 8.5KW system:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/1892870/wh...id-solar-system

Would then seem to fit the bill at around $20K USD and then an additional cost of the battery bank at ~10K.

So you'd be into about 30K USD total (or roughly 45K Canadian) from the looks of things to be completely off HydroONE if your usage is in-line with what I've posted. Now the panels last supposedly 15-20 years, the inverter setup should last basically forever, but the batteries will have a finite lifespan as well, and if you are discharging them heavily to charge the car and run your gear every night, I'm not sure how that affects it?

But say the battery bank lasts 5 years, that's $10K every 5 years, or 2K a year. If the solar panels are 20K, that's another 1K a year to account for (or more if they don't last 20 years). So at minimum you are out 3K a year on maintenance for the system assuming the inverter doesn't ever die.

And this all assumes that you pay more than 3K a year for hydro to make this economically viable

$3k per year to eliminate my electricity bill and my fuel bill? And you get to tell Hydro1 where to go? Sign me up! That would be significantly less than we pay now.
There is the overall charging efficiency as well, but I suppose if everyone really got smart, you could charge DC to DC from home battery to car battery without much waste, and just configure the home battery for the ideal charging voltage for the car battery.
I suspect the 30 min Tesla super charger isn't totally efficient and charges faster than the most efficient rate.
The great thing about the Tesla's is they have the range for 4 days commute too so a couple cloudy days won't have me cranking up the generator.
So if you've got the space for the solar panels and batteries, I'd think most families that have 2 cars, could have one electric one without any hardship. One of our cars often sits all weekend anyways I find.