Correct oil for flat tappets

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by Mad_Max_Sam
Originally Posted by caprice_2nv


So that's words straight from Shell basically saying they think zddp is important for flat tappet. Unless they are just saying it because they're aware that the majority of old car enthusiasts are under the impression that it is important? It may be easier for them to state which oil has higher zddp than to argue whether or not it is important.




my only point was that Shell did not recommend their 5W30 gas-truck oil for flat-tappet cams...when they could have just said 'yup they're all good' - I thought that was fairly forthright of them. I do have a fair amount of faith in the Rotella T4, 5, 6 oils now, plus it isn't spendy and it's easy to find just about anywhere.

...or I suppose I could also just get a case of Joe Gibbs HR-5 10W40 and call it good...


I can get 5 gallon barrels of either rotella or Mobil delvac at Canadian tire on sale for very cheap. Only thing is they only seen to have 15w40 in stock and I was hoping to go with straight 30 weight. Although I should try one change worth before assuming it will work fine and buying that much.

 

[userfriendly]

Rotella mono grades are available at Canadian Tired for $65/5 gallon pail.
Not every store stocks them. Order them in, SAE 10,30 & 40.

 

[BBDartCA]

Just about every current CK/CJ oil carries an approval from an engine manufacturer for an engine model using pushrods and standard flat hydraulic lifters (not roller lifters).

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by userfriendly
Rotella mono grades are available at Canadian Tired for $65/5 gallon pail.
Not every store stocks them. Order them in, SAE 10,30 & 40.


Thanks. Will likely go have them order one in for me.

 

[Mad_Max_Sam]

well....FWIW....I just talked with the folks at Castrol, and they said the only oil they currently make with the anti-wear package for flat tappet camshaft engines is their 5W50 Edge.

I also called the Quaker State tech line...and the recorded message said 'welcome to the Shell Corporation', so yeah. Then I asked their tech dept and they said they acquired both Quaker State and Pennzoil - both now based on Shell oil...so there's that.

Shell re-stated that their Rotella T4, 5 and 6 diesel oils all 'were' APISN rated, which has been since reformulated again to include the necessary ZDDP package for flat-tappet diesels (and gas engines), and that their gas engine 5W30 oil...formulated for vehicles with cats...does not.

According to Shell, it is the combination of the gasoline exhaust with the phosphorous that kills catalytic converters, whereas diesel fuel exhaust does not have the same deteriorating effect. I of course can't confirm whether or not that is scientifically accurate but I suppose it is still a potentially plausible explanation.

Also, according to Shell...all of the Quaker State and Pennzoil oils now produced carry the APISN rating, meaning not higher than 800 ppm of the anti-wear additives...meaning none of them are recommended for flat-tappet engines.

With all of that said I am pretty confident in the Rotella T oils, and Castrol Edge 5W50.

Just passing on what the tech folks are sayin' - hope it helps.

- Sam

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Mad_Max_Sam
well....FWIW....I just talked with the folks at Castrol, and they said the only oil they currently make with the anti-wear package for flat tappet camshaft engines is their 5W50 Edge.

Also, according to Shell...all of the Quaker State and Pennzoil oils now produced carry the APISN rating, meaning not higher than 800 ppm of the anti-wear additives...meaning none of them are recommended for flat-tappet engines.

With all of that said I am pretty confident in the Rotella T oils, and Castrol Edge 5W50.

Just passing on what the tech folks are sayin' - hope it helps.

- Sam


So I wonder what their thoughts are on direct cam lobe on bucket/shim over head cam style engines using these oils?

Over head cam on bucket/shim is no different than cam on solid lifter. Lots of Japanese engines have cam on bucket/shim style valve trains.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by Mad_Max_Sam
Also, according to Shell...all of the Quaker State and Pennzoil oils now produced carry the APISN rating, meaning not higher than 800 ppm of the anti-wear additives...meaning none of them are recommended for flat-tappet engines.

With all of that said I am pretty confident in the Rotella T oils, and Castrol Edge 5W50.

Actually it's a misconception that dual-rated CK-4/SN oils can't have a phosphorus level higher than 800 ppm. They can have up to 1,200 ppm phosphorus, as any CK-4 oil, dual-rated or not.

Castrol EDGE Supercar 5W-50 is not a good oil for any car, let alone a flat tappet or a super car because it's nothing but VII on a relatively thin base oil, with also a weak HTHS viscosity of 3.8 cP for a SAE 50 oil.

Here is my updated spreadsheet:

Estimated base-oil viscosity and VII content of selected oils

 

[RDY4WAR]

Some polymers are pretty rock solid when it comes to shear. An HTHS of 3.8 cP is fine for an engine that would otherwise be running a 30 or 40 grade anyway. The only area this really matters is in the bearings. The additive package is far more important elsewhere in the engine.

An overhead cam/bucket setup will operate in mixed and boundary lubrication like a pushrod engine flat tappet cam/lifter would, but at lower pressure to the cam lobe. With a pushrod setup, the spring pressure is multiplied across the rocker arm and the valvetrain weight is much higher so mass acceleration is a factor. This is why more anti-wear is needed for a pushrod flat tappet engine, but not necessarily for a flat bucket OHC engine. More EP also helps with pushrod solid valvetrain setups to cushion the blow between parts when the lash gets taken up. All of this is happening in mixed and boundary lubrication.

 

[Scuder]

Originally Posted by Mad_Max_Sam
... they said they acquired both Quaker State and Pennzoil - both now based on Shell oil...so there's that.

That was almost 20 years ago. To get regulatory approval, Shell had to spin-off Pennzoil's 50% interest in Excell Paralubes, which was Pennzoil's source for base stock. It's only natural they would use Shell base oil.

Originally Posted by Mad_Max_Sam
Also, according to Shell...all of the Quaker State and Pennzoil oils now produced carry the APISN rating, meaning not higher than 800 ppm of the anti-wear additives...meaning none of them are recommended for flat-tappet engines.

SN rated oils xxW-40 and heavier not labelled "Resource Conserving" aren't limited to 800 ppm of ZDDP. As recently as last year, QS High Mileage 10W-40 had around 1100 ppm of ZDDP. It could have since been reformulated, but I picked up a couple of years worth for my Barracuda.

 

[alanwayne1908]

I have researched and settled on either Valvoline VR1 or Amsoil ZRod for my Turbo T ,another option is a ZDDP additive but in my mind it changes the chemistry in oil formulation

 

[RazorsEdge]

Originally Posted by alanwayne1908

I have researched and settled on either Valvoline VR1 or Amsoil ZRod for my Turbo T ,another option is a ZDDP additive but in my mind it changes the chemistry in oil formulation


Love those Turbo Regals

 

[pitzel]

CI-4 HDEO has high ZDDP generally. The ZDDP was cut back seriously in the CJ-4 spec.

Mono grades, those are completely and utterly obsolete unless you live in a really hot climate.

 

[Kamele0N]

Look up for "old" threads of SonOfJoe user...he elaborated in that thin vs thick base oil debate.... Actually it was more like API/ILSAC vs ACEA oils

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Look up for "old" threads of SonOfJoe user...he elaborated in that thin vs thick base oil debate.... Actually it was more like API/ILSAC vs ACEA oils

Yes I miss SonOfJoe / Joe90Guy, he was great.

 

[Kamele0N]

Same

 

[RDY4WAR]

Originally Posted by pitzel
CI-4 HDEO has high ZDDP generally. The ZDDP was cut back seriously in the CJ-4 spec.

Mono grades, those are completely and utterly obsolete unless you live in a really hot climate.


Mono-grades are still used heavily in the racing industry, especially in engines that see a lot of boost or nitrous. The Street Outlaws guys (and others like them running high boost/nitrous methanol engines) run a non-detergent SAE 50 oil. For everyday daily drivers, I agree that it's mostly obsolete. Perhaps we'll have a monograde SAE 20 oil come out soon.

 

[Kamele0N]

20w20....
addinol turbo diesel md 205

 

[Mad_Max_Sam]

I was curious about the VR1 "racing" oil so I called Valvoline and they confirmed that indeed the VR1 flat-tappet oil is good for daily-drivers (the "Racing" part kinda really means "high performance" - big cams, etc.), while their Pro V is indeed a 'race-only' oil, and while it can be used it isn't recomended unless you plan to change your oil every other weekend.

My original goal was to try to develop a list of locally available 'off-the-shelf' flat-tappet oils requiring no additives, and so far it's a pretty short list:

- Shell Rotella T4/T5/T6, available pretty much anywhere
- Valvoline VR1, available at NAPA and Pep Boys - not sure about O'rielly and AutoZone, etc.

And I might just switch to Valvoline Premium Blue for my Cumminzeeszz...


Thanks everyone for your inputs and recommendations. Feel free to add to the list.
- Sam

 

[RDY4WAR]

Valvoline VR1 is essentially just Valvoline conventional with 60% more ZDDP thrown in. Same add pack otherwise and same TBN.

 

[Mad_Max_Sam]

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
Valvoline VR1 is essentially just Valvoline conventional with 60% more ZDDP thrown in. Same add pack otherwise and same TBN.


...and that's fine - so long as it's the proper oil for flat-tappet cams, is available locally, and doesn't require anything extra...