Confessions of a Recovering Thickie

[Motor oil rookie]

So am I wasting my money on Red Line?

 

[Speedy3861]

I'm curious after two results showing M1 EP had thinned out significantly in your vehicle with 70% life remaining on the OLM, and you still run M1 EP?? Have you considered a different oil that will hold up better?

Actually, we switched the CRV over to 5W-30 EP and due to the almost exclusively short trips usage changed it twice a year. Ultimately we decided that using a vehicle with the 1.5t in this manner was not effective and traded it on a HRV EX-L that has the 2.0NA engine. This vehicle usually get between 2/3k a year, but is much easier on oil. My 2023 Civic Touring Sedan 1.5t gets much more highway miles and about 10k/yr, using Mobil1 5W-30 EP and 4-5k intervals and shows little if any rise on the dipstick and my servicing technician indicates no noticeable fuel odor when changing oil. The problem wasn't the oil, the CRV would have thinned any 0w20 quickly due to it's proclivity to dilute when used for short trips only. There is no magic oil for this issue.

 

[FlyingTexan]

Also from Toyota R&D:

"It is also important to note that, contrary to what many take for granted, higher viscosity in and of itself does not translate into better engine protection.

Impossible. I was told it always does since the beginning of physics.

 

[FlyingTexan]

So am I wasting my money on Red Line?

View attachment 278597

Not at all. Those UOA don’t tell you the whole story. WAY too many variables not being considered.

For starters wear in oil doesn’t take into account what’s in the filter.

 

[picklyrickly1073]

Actually, we switched the CRV over to 5W-30 EP and due to the almost exclusively short trips usage changed it twice a year. Ultimately we decided that using a vehicle with the 1.5t in this manner was not effective and traded it on a HRV EX-L that has the 2.0NA engine. This vehicle usually get between 2/3k a year, but is much easier on oil. My 2023 Civic Touring Sedan 1.5t gets much more highway miles and about 10k/yr, using Mobil1 5W-30 EP and 4-5k intervals and shows little if any rise on the dipstick and my servicing technician indicates no noticeable fuel odor when changing oil. The problem wasn't the oil, the CRV would have thinned any 0w20 quickly due to it's proclivity to dilute when used for short trips only. There is no magic oil for this issue.

We have the same cars in the house and my wife’s 1.5t CRV is also only driven about 7000 per year and I change it twice a year. Oil level doesn’t rise and realistically she will never put enough miles on the car for us to encounter any issues with the oil dilution. I use 5w-30 in hers and in my 1.5t civic hatch which sees 15k+ annually

 

[ltslimjim]

Impossible. I was told it always does since the beginning of physics.

By itself? No. Headroom not needed or tested isn’t going to do better in actual real world usage. The question really comes down to whether it does better vs could if pushed past limits. If limits aren’t tested, the thicker oil won’t yield better results by itself. It could; depending though, and that is where some opt to step up a grade.

However, simply going to the thickest possible oil; on the other hand, is a fools errand and truly over-correcting and ignoring the nuances here. Some simply do not trust where US owners manuals call for a thinner grade where other countries have the same exact engine and the grade recommendations aren’t the same; despite the engine being identical. So, we know CAFE exists and while the thinner recommendations could be adequate, some see the inconsistency and opt for one step up. Hardly thicker simply better, but the question is to what degree could it be.

It comes down to a preference on what is valued. More potential protection or more potential efficiency/power gains at the potential risk of protection? It’s a trade off. Whether that becomes measurable hypothetically at time of engine tear down, is something we likely can’t state a blanket yes or no for everyone. YMMV.

On the other hand, 20 grade oils have been out there for decades and engines aren’t failing left and right because of that. That said, I don’t see the harm in stepping up to a 30 as the engine gets much older; especially if consumption becomes a thing. Some see severe fuel dilution and recognizes the viscosity has dropped; at times out of grade, during UOA testing and so stepping up a grade actually keeps the operating viscosity at the recommended grade.

The newer, much thinner oils like 0w8 for specific applications is new territory. Engines can tolerate a wide range of viscosity and regular / situation appropriate maintenance is probably more of an important factor than blindly stating 1 viscosity is required for a given engine. Stepping up a grade can have its reasons.

 

[FlyingTexan]

By itself? No. Headroom not needed or tested isn’t going to do better in actual real world usage. The question really comes down to whether it does better vs could if pushed past limits. If limits aren’t tested, the thicker oil won’t yield better results by itself. It could; depending though, and that is where some opt to step up a grade.

However, simply going to the thickest possible oil; on the other hand, is a fools errand and truly over-correcting and ignoring the nuances here. Some simply do not trust where US owners manuals call for a thinner grade where other countries have the same exact engine and the grade recommendations aren’t the same; despite the engine being identical. So, we know CAFE exists and while the thinner recommendations could be adequate, some see the inconsistency and opt for one step up. Hardly thicker simply better, but the question is to what degree could it be.

It comes down to a preference on what is valued. More potential protection or more potential efficiency/power gains at the potential risk of protection? It’s a trade off. Whether that becomes measurable hypothetically at time of engine tear down, is something we likely can’t state a blanket yes or no for everyone. YMMV. On the other hand, 20 grade oils have been out there for decades and engines aren’t failing left and right because of that. That said, I don’t see the harm in stepping up to a 30 as the engine gets much older; especially if consumption becomes a thing. The newer, much thinner oils like 0w8 for specific applications is new territory. Engines can tolerate a wide range of viscosity and regular / situation appropriate maintenance is probably more of an important factor than blindly stating 1 viscosity is required for a given engine. Stepping up a grade can have its reasons.

100% post you wrote there!

 

[buster]

Impossible. I was told it always does since the beginning of physics.

An oil contains somewhere around 18 components or so. I took it as you could have a poorly formulated, low budget high viscosity oil perform worse than a really good formulated low viscosity oil.

 

[Sienna dude]

200k miles on Mobil 1 0w16 baby

 

[FlyingTexan]

An oil contains somewhere around 18 components or so. I took it as you could have a poorly formulated, low budget high viscosity oil perform worse than a really good formulated low viscosity oil.

That would make perfect sense as well!

 

[buster]

200k miles on Mobil 1 0w16 baby

View attachment 278727

Very consistent results. Good amount of fuel dilution.

 

[webfors]

I have been poring over the UOA section looking at every UOA I can find. It sure seems to me that if you plotted wear metal rate per 1000 miles against viscosity grade, you'd have incredibly weak correlation. The R-square has to be under 10%. There are some outlier datapoints, but within the realm of modern fuel-injected gasoline cars with more than ~40k miles on them, you will see about 1ppm/1k miles of iron, which is the primary wear metal.

You run supertech or Kirkland? You'll see about 1ppm/1k miles.
HPL or Ravenol? You'll see about 1ppm/1k miles.

If you are a fan of thin oils and run 0w20, you'll see about 1ppm/1k miles of iron.
If you are a fan of thick oils and run 5w40, you'll see about 1ppm/1k miles of iron.


If you have over 2ppm/1k miles of iron, you are a BITOG outlier.

I'm forced to confess the reality that while I prefer heavier oils with low to no VII content (SAE 40, yeah baby!), there's no evidence in our UOAs that says you are significantly extending engine life vs some thinner oil that is also sufficiently protective.

Sufficient is sufficient. Being more sufficiently thick doesn't change anything but burn more fuel. Think of it this way: what can you do with a net worth of $100 billion that you cannot do with a net worth of $20 billion? Nothing, really. In both cases you are crazy rich. The fact that one is 5x the other amounts to nothing, really.

I think that's what's sort of at work here. I can, under duress of data, confess that my preference for thicker oil is emotional, not intellectual.

You are officially ex-communicated from the cult of thick.

My fabricated peace of mind is a necessity... sir!

 

[ripcord]

You are officially ex-communicated from the cult of thick
The Holy, Most Reliable, Church of the Everlasting Ring and Bearing.

My fabricated peace of mind is a necessity... sir!

Fixed it for you.

 

[kschachn]

I'm curious after two results showing M1 EP had thinned out significantly in your vehicle with 70% life remaining on the OLM, and you still run M1 EP?? Have you considered a different oil that will hold up better?

He has a problem with fuel dilution. What oil will help this?

 

[scrllock]

He has a problem with fuel dilution. What oil will help this?

Cheaper oil so he can save for new injectors.

 

[Speedy3861]

He has a problem with fuel dilution. What oil will help this?

As you have previously mentioned, there is no magic oil. Among API rated oils, Mobil1 EP is generally well regarded. When dilution is a result of a specific design and worst case operating conditions (short trips, colder climate, etc) there are various options: Increase viscosity and/or shorter OCI'S, we, ultimately, chose a third option, traded for a 25 Honda HRV with a 2.0 Port Injection engine more well adapted to our use. My Civic with the 1.5t, uses 5W-30 EP without issues as it sees mostly highway usage. This may be Honda's last port-injected engine, the 25 Civic uses a 2.0 Atkinson-cycle engine with direct injection. Time will tell how that works out.

 

[chris719]

Two things. One, we can’t say that wear metals via UOA tell the entire story. Two, it is true that in certain areas of the engine like valvetrain, the viscosity appears to be secondary to the anti-wear package. Especially for journal bearings, viscosity / HTHS is critically important but once you pass a certain threshold more should not logically deliver benefits depending on your oil temps, assuming a sane engine design.

 

[tired]

He has a problem with fuel dilution. What oil will help this?

Amsoil

Here's an example. Amsoil 0W-20 stayed in grade despite significant fuel dilution and severe driving conditions (winter in Minnesota) whereas M1 AFE sheared out of grade in 2000 miles with much less fuel dilution.

I bet others with more expansive knowledge than me can point to more examples with Amsoil or examples with HPL.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Modern oils basically all protect very well against wear. I use HPL because of its astounding ability to clean internals and keep them clean. Engines almost all die from stuck rings, not wear.

I am sold on HPL not just due to it's quality, also due to that company's customer service , interactions and advice. Even to a tiny customer group like the few on BITOG who use it. I would be willing to bet the majority of BITOG members have not or do not have oil burning engines and most have likely never had an engine blow out on them and flat out fail. I have never had either happen in owning near 25 vehicles.

 

[tired]

As you have previously mentioned, there is no magic oil. Among API rated oils, Mobil1 EP is generally well regarded. When dilution is a result of a specific design and worst case operating conditions (short trips, colder climate, etc) there are various options: Increase viscosity and/or shorter OCI'S, we, ultimately, chose a third option, traded for a 25 Honda HRV with a 2.0 Port Injection engine more well adapted to our use. My Civic with the 1.5t, uses 5W-30 EP without issues as it sees mostly highway usage. This may be Honda's last port-injected engine, the 25 Civic uses a 2.0 Atkinson-cycle engine with direct injection. Time will tell how that works out.

I'm sure you could have paid for a lot of oil changes or even an engine rebuild a few times over with the bath you took trading in for a new car. But that is a new option.