Completely re-thinking engine oil, and the API

[addyguy]

Back in 1971, the API started it 'modern' oil labelling system, and more or less started with API SE. In 1981, API SF superceded API SE, and that spec lasted until 1988. So, these two specs covered 18 years of vehicle engines.

In the 22 years since API SG came out to replace, we've had 6 new API specs, including the new API SN. Everytime one of these new specs comes out, new deveklopments in base oils and additives make oils more and more expensive.

API SE and SF oils were very simple - group I, solvent refined base oil, high ZN/P for wear protection, and a low level of detergency for engine cleaning. Now, a lot of people say these oils were very primitive and poor-quality. BUT, these oils kept millions and millions of cars running just fine through the 1970's, 1980's, and into the 1990's. These cars this oil serviced weren't easy on oil, either - carburators, points ignition, poor air filtration, poor metallurgy, poor machining.

So, if this oil was able to keep these engines going for thousands of miles, it would stand to reason that they would work just as well, if not better, in todays computer-controlled, fuel-injected, precisely-machined engines.

And lo and behold, they DO:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/circa-1985-qs-10-40-in-v6-grandam-3-000-miles.141967/

So...why do we need 6 new levels of certification, expensive group II/III blends, expensive additves (moly, boron, over-based Ca), when the basics will do just fine?

Oh, right, because the oil companies and API tell us we need this progress.

I'd bet anything a group I/I+/II base oil (I'll allow that maybe a basic hydro-crak might be economical and useful), with an API SE/SF add-pack (1,000-1,200ppm ZN, 1,000ppm P, 300-600 ppm Ca, and 200-500ppm Mg) would do just fine in a modern engine with 5-8k OCI's...hey, in the example up above, this exact oil had a TBN of 5 after 3k miles - don't tell me that couldn't have done 6-7k.

And, for those of you who think this type of oil wouldn't be good in cold weather, look at the ccs/mrv values of 'modern' SN oils - they've almost all gone up to the limits allowed.

Who's with me?

 

[Quest]

@OP:

don't forget that most of these oil specs are also driving by ever growing engine designs as well as emissions law.

Back in the days or yore: most engines are of carb'ed variety, moderate revving engines with much more blow-by (loose rings, ring gaps, primitive PCV systems, cats or no cats, lower tempurature running varieties)can take on the most primitive (hydrocracked/group-1) base oil with minimal cleaning ability/deposit controls and still meet those engine's demand and keep the motoring public going for a reasonable service intervals (typical OCI in the 70s are around 2~3kmiles).

Now, with extremely tight emissions control with sophisicated computerised engine control/management, tightened emssions law, heavier cars, higher engine manufacturing processing/tighter manufacturing processes,much higher revving engines, etc. engines run much hotter and also have to be capable of handing more stuff coming from different gasoline formulations, EGR gas recirculation, nasty blowby, much more hotter engine operating temperature, higher output/physical weight (or cylinder displacement) ratio, etc.

Oh and don't forget that with mandated emissions law such as Cali, emissions control components are expected to bear a warranty period of 10+ yrs or more.

with all these in mind: old API gp 1 motor oil can no longer take on this challenge and still keep the general motoring public and their valued assets on the road long enough to make it worthwhile. Thus the call for GpII or GpII+ to say the least. Also: detergency and deposit control now becomes a more profound issues that engine manufacturers and lubricant manufacturers have to face in order to keep their cars running on the road for a long periods of time reliably.

My 2c's worth.

Q.

 

[bepperb]

Good for people who change oil regularly and have straightforward (not turbo, not DI) setups, and have no direct concern with emissions or fuel economy.

API is tasked with making something work everywhere with one standard, which adds to cost for everyone even though some don't benefit. For example, I don't benefit from turbo deposits resistance, or E85 corrosion protection but I still pay for them.


But, I'm fine with it. It's a small cost and I understand where the money is going and why it's needed.

Would you really use your 1970's oil in something like a new Corvette ZR1? Do you want two levels of API specs? And if so, would you really use the cheaper one to save ten cents a quart?

 

[Mark72]

There is only one answer to the question... Government

 

[addyguy]

I understand what you're saying, Quest, but i don't think it plays out quite like that.

In the 1970's yes, engines were 'looser' and ran comparatively 'slower', bu they still ran hot. In fact, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say engines ran hotter often back then, as much larger iron-based engines, with primitive cooling systems, wouldn't have shed heat nearly as well as modern, aluminum based, high-tech cooled engines do these days.

With the tighter tolerances on todays engines, stuff stays where it sold more - less blowby, less oil burining n the exhaust, so I think a well-formulated group-I/I+ oil would do just fine. As for detergency, I think that a bit of overkill plays into the DD requirements these days - you're getting promises of 'sludge protection' and 'engine cleaning' driving add-pack choices - a well balanced oil, with a TBN of about 7, can be done with a lot less DD additives, and willl keep an engine clean enough to meet todays needs just fine.

 

[addyguy]

Quote:

"Would you really use your 1970's oil in something like a new Corvette ZR1? Do you want two levels of API specs? And if so, would you really use the cheaper one to save ten cents a quart?"

Okay, I will back-track a bit ad admit that for specialized applications, a more advanced oil would be required.

....but, I look around on a daily basis, and the roads around me are full of Chev Cavaliers and Cobalts, toyota Camry's and Civics, minivans and small SUV's. None of them use turbo's, or high-hp V-8's. They do use DOHC and multi-valves, but in general, they are very 'gentle' engines - not high-stress applications. A well-formulated, group-I+ 5w30 with an API SE/SF add-pack would do just fine in them.

And I'm not talking about saving 10 cents a quart. An oil like I describe above could most likely be made for a retail price in Canada of $1.75-$2.25/quart, when current retail on most oils is $4-5/quart...even with slightly lowered OCI's, I'm talking big savings...but a loss to the API and oil companies.

 

[Quest]

yeah, I know what you are thinking about addyguy.

Please understand the following at play here:

(1) carb'ed cars are crude and will introduce a lot of fuel dilutions into oil, esp. frequent short trips/cold starts or winter time.

(2) emissions blowby and PCV recirculation introduce a lot of ugly chemical pollutants back into the crankcase.

(3) carb'ed engines were very crude in a sense that the mixture cannot reach a tightly controlled stoichiometric ratio (or one that is taken by the manufacturer's design goal). Thus a lot of pollutants introduced into the motor oil too.

(4) back in the carb'ed car days with little to no emissions control, engines were fairly efficient due to the lack of horsepower robbing emissions add-ons and/or requirements. Cars just run as cars and that's it. Try using the same carb'ed cars (w/o the consideration of EFI/computer control) nowadays with all the emissions-addons to meet the needs of today's mandate and see if you can even come out with 2/3 of what the non-emissioned carb'ed engine of the same set up would have (you'll be genuinely surprised).

Conversely, if you look at it this way: modern computer controlled cars engine of the same displacement (mass-production cars I mean, not individually stroked ones) are more efficient and gives out more horsepower than that of the same engine displacement (carb'ed) some 30+yrs ago (ref when API was still somewhat in SA/SB range and US starts implementing cat convertors and unleaded gas, etc.). With that in mind, modern day engines have a totally different diet RE: motor oil formulation to that of the cars from the days of yore: meaning that modern motor oil is formulated to serve modern designed, engines with tight emissions-control accordingly.

While I can see the possible benefits of running API SM motor oil in engines of the days of yore (cleanliness, resistance in corrosion, acid formulation, etc.), I cannot see the possible benefits of running API SA/SB in modern day engines w/o the introduction of issues (rapid base oil deterioriation, deposit formation due to relative lack in detergency/detergent package , etc.)

Q.

p.s. also: my understanding RE: carburettors are technologically obsolete now for modern day gasoline automobile engine designs due to it's very crude/lack of precision and control of fuel and air mixture ratio, esp. given the emssions requirements imposed by many governments and control bodies globally in this world.

(*yes, I still have B&S mower and honda pressure washers that run on carb ...*)

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Back in the days or yore: most engines are of carb'ed variety, moderate revving engines with much more blow-by (loose rings, ring gaps, primitive PCV systems, cats or no cats, lower temperature running varieties)can take on the most primitive (hydrocracked/group-1) base oil with minimal cleaning ability/deposit controls and still meet those engine's demand and keep the motoring public going for a reasonable service intervals (typical OCI in the 70s are around 2~3kmiles).


Glad you pointed that out. I must say, a LOT of people with larger American 70's engines that have never opened them up run 50-wt. Oil in there due to all the pressure needed, at least over the time of about 200,000 miles. Yeah, 0W-20 may work in new cars, sure. But a 455ci, or a huge Chrysler that has been run into the ground, or a huge monster 6.0L or larger (Tow) Truck V-8? A nice, thick oil will fill those..
Quote:
much more blow-by (loose rings, ring gaps, primitive PCV systems, cats or no cats, lower temperature running varieties) *EDIT I would even add "Early FI or EFI"
Many the time its HIGHER running temperatures generated by all that metal and iron, trapped heat underhood, and "Much more blow-by" Thick oil helps with that too? even a 40-wt. if 50 is deemed too much by an owner that is averse to using it?

 

[Old Mustang Guy]

I think modern oils are much better and are a relative bargain considering the increase in costs of the base stocks and additives and the fact that they can be run longer.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

The API’s singular approach to oil specifications makes no sense in a world where the major vehicle manufacturers each have their own oil specs, and the major motor oil suppliers each market multiple tiers of product.

 

[cos]

addyguy,

I understand your position but if a lower price is the goal then why not just stock up when there is a good sale/rebate?

Back in the mid 80's I'd wait for Castrol GTX to go on sale for .99/qt and then I'd buy a case (back then a case here in the US was 24 qts!). Today I stock up when Pennzoil Platinum or Quaker State Ultimate Durability is on sale/rebate for $2.00-$2.50/qt. Factor in inflation and the better deal, by far, are today's high quality oils.

 

[HangerHarley]

Originally Posted By: Mark72
There is only one answer to the question... Government

And it does not have to be this way..

Thanks for the laugh

 

[sangyup81]

What do you think of all the modifications done for the sake of catalytic converters?

 

[addyguy]

If you mean changes that are made to oil to protect CC's, I think they are over done, and the importance of them is exaggerated.

As I've stated, modern engines are tighter today than they've ever been, and most engines burn almost no oil for their entire life. Lots of 200k mile vehicles that use 0 oil between changes.

If the oil doesn't burn, it doesn't affect the CC, so it doesn't matter HOW much ZN/P is in the oil, it just isn't getting to the CC.

As for the higher volatility of group-I base oils, as has also been stated, modern engines have better 'scavenging' systems than ever, and very few vapurs/fumes..etc..get into the atmosphere, so again, no issue.

 

[fdcg27]

We have a guy on here who has shown that old spec oils do just fine on moderate change intervals in a typical cooking engine.
I think you have made an exellent post.
I also think that this means that guys like me who change current spec oils after 4-6K are rather foolish.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Originally Posted By: cos
addyguy,

I understand your position but if a lower price is the goal then why not just stock up when there is a good sale/rebate?


Exactly. I have a stash that will keep me going at least 7 years, all bought on sale or rebates with an average cost well under $1/qt including sales tax. I just passed up a sale a couple of weeks ago on synthetic blend for 99 cents after rebate. I'm sure a better deal will come along in the next 7 years before I have to worry.

 

[PandaBear]

Wait, so if I understand you correctly:

1) You say the quality of engine oil improvement isn't necessary and you'd rather have some $1 a quart oil that will barely last only half as long.

2) Engine design should stay with carb instead of newer technologies like direct injection, so you can use the $1 oil

3) Having to pay the same price today for dino as yesterday for synthetic, before factoring in inflation, for the same or better quality oil, is a bad deal.

4) It is the fault of engine oil that emission control gets more complicated.



No thanks. I'd keep up with the newer oil spec and extend my OCI, or embrace newer engine design instead.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Price of motor oil hasn't really changed all that much. The CPI says $1 in 1985 = $2.03 in 2010. So today's modern synthetics which enable you to go 10k or more per OCI really only cost you ~$4/quart back in 1985.

 

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Wait, so if I understand you correctly:

1) You say the quality of engine oil improvement isn't necessary and you'd rather have some $1 a quart oil that will barely last only half as long.

2) Engine design should stay with carb instead of newer technologies like direct injection, so you can use the $1 oil

3) Having to pay the same price today for dino as yesterday for synthetic, before factoring in inflation, for the same or better quality oil, is a bad deal.

4) It is the fault of engine oil that emission control gets more complicated.



No thanks. I'd keep up with the newer oil spec and extend my OCI, or embrace newer engine design instead.


In answer to your statements.....

1. Yes, a lot of oil 'improvements' aren't necessary BECAUSE old-spec oil will last as long as it needs to - 6-7k. See the UOA in the post - TBN of 5 after 3k.

2. This is absolutely NOT what I said - I said new-technology engines, because of their improvements, would work fine with old-spec oil.

3. Yes, more or less.

4. No, newer emmisssion equipment won't be harmed by old-spec oils....so it doesn't make a difference.

 

[AEHaas]

I disagree. I believe that if you used an API SE oil in your new Ford Expedition engine, say a 10w30, or your new Nissen 350 Z, your engine would last far fewer miles. During that time the ring and valve seals would stick and deteriorate. Oil would start being burned by 30 or 40,000 miles and the pollutants would be enormous. The gas mileage due to the leaking and sticking rings and valves would result in lesser fuel economy as the engine aged. People did not notice back then when gas was 40 cents a gallon.

Even then, modern engines would last longer than the older engines because of better material engineering. Todays engines can withstand more abuse than the older engines. If the older engine materials and engineering and constructions were used in the new engines it would be worse.

Current engines take 5 to 10 to even 20,000 miles to be fully broken-in. Modern engines are higher revving. They have more BHP per displacement. They run hotter and at higher RPM. Small engines are asked to propel relatively heavier cars at 75 to 80 MPH on our super highways.

The same can be said about transmissions and current fluids.

aehaas