Collapsed filter media revisited

[ZR2RANDO]

I also used to think it was normal for the filter to be empty when I removed it, until I stopped using Frams and found out that other brands didn’t drain out like the Frams always did.
Frams have 2 problems regarding cold starts-
1-the adbv routinely draining out and causing a few seconds of tapping until pressure builds up, (depending on the vehicle not always audible) and
2- the problem that I was describing…valvetrain rattle that occurred for several minutes until the oil warmed up/thinned enough to flow better.

Both problems went away for me when I stopped using Frams.

AS usual, to correct MORE Filter Guy Spin……

As for the statement-
“Yet, he changes to a more restictive media than what is in the Fram and his problem is "solved".”

I never said that…I said
“Only when I read that Frams caused that noise routinely did I even think about changing. I bought a new filter, (ACDelco at that time) changed the filter only- not the oil, and the noise never re-occurred.”
I have used several brands of filters since then…all were better than the Frams.

Filter Guy- stop trying to spin everyone’s words just to fit your purpose, which as far as I can tell is just to confuse the issue and deflect blame away from cheap ineffective filters.
You are the one that argues for the sake of arguing.

 

[Propflux01]

quote:

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Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:

Frams have 2 problems regarding cold starts-
1-the adbv routinely draining out and causing a few seconds of tapping until pressure builds up, (depending on the vehicle not always audible) and
2- the problem that I was describing…valvetrain rattle that occurred for several minutes until the oil warmed up/thinned enough to flow better.

Both problems went away for me when I stopped using Frams.

---

This was also discussed on page 2: "Yeah, valvetrain noises at startup that go away when you change filter brands from Fram to anything else must be caused by something other than those Fram filters…
Yeah, holes in the paper and torn pleats are not a thing that us “average persons” can tell without using scientific equipment to detect either."

FG: Not arguing 'just for the sake of it'...

 

[lubeowner]

motorguy,

Could not have said it better.

 

[ediamiam]

quote:

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Originally posted by motorguy222:
I was not implying that a car owner is stupid because they think that a rattle is normal.

It comes down to the point that many car owners dont know a lot about their cars mechanicals.

This is normal.

---

This is so true, its not funny anymore. My dad use to have this old cadillac, pinged like crazy going uphill. I told him his car had a problem, he thought it was the powermode kicking in for the uphill battle.

 

[leel]

and thats how I feel about this thread...............

 

[wavinwayne]

There's a ton of good info in this thread, but I think this one's just about run it's course.

 

[leel]

wavinwayne,I totally agree.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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The failure is most likely from wear and tear that has been caused by the filter over the long haul.

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I would find this hard to believe. I would more attribute virtually any engine failure on negligence of the owner. I've never seen an engine decay with appropriate maintenance ...even with marginal maintenance. Most zhitboxes you see out there are on their second or third owner.

but ...wavinwayne is correct. I'll let all interested get their last words in ...and we'll wait for the next round.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

I’d think it would be more accurate to say that most engines that die of old age died due to general wear and tear, maybe filters,oil,cooling issues and such…things just finally wear out. Cheap filters don't usually kill an engine outright..it is usually a gradual process. Only some catastophic failure would make it quick
I would assign owner negligence and faulty repairs more often to engines that die an abnormally early death though.
The statement-
“I would more attribute virtually any engine failure on negligence of the owner.” sounds too familiar to me here on BITOG. I don’t blame everything on owners.


Filter Guy insists that when I abandoned Fram filters and switched to an AC filter that I
“went to a more restrictive media” and then he creates a purely speculative scenario as to how that could have affected my startup noise issue with the Frams.

Here is the correction.

It should be noted that the AC filters routinely have SIGNIFICANTLY MORE FILTER MEDIA (you can compare the AC pf1218 and the Fram ph5 for example, and according to the BITOG filter tests the AC shows LESS RESTRICTIVE media as well) than the Fram equivalents, therefore avoiding the flow restriction that Fram can cause due to their typical lack of media area. Filter Guy conveniently left out those details. He also ignored my statement
“I have used several brands of filters since then…all were better than the Frams.”

Filter Guy goes on and on and on and speculates in the rest of his ranting how any other detail (as usual) must have been responsible for that noise to have gone away.

The simple fact is that I stopped using Fram filters and the noises went away.
I did not swap out a piece of media for another piece of media by itself.
I swapped out a Fram filter for an AC filter the first time, I have used Purolator Premium Plus and Pure ones, Motorcrafts (made by Purolator),Kmart Penske and Castrol- made my Wix, and Wix Napa Golds as well, all with no noises returning.
I have not changed out my oil pump or my oil pickup screen.

The only thing I have changed is the brand of filter that I have used.

[ June 18, 2005, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Filter guy]

Rando:

I noticed you said you went from Fram to AC Delco.

I was the one that said you went to a more restrictive media.

Unknown to you...you did.

Fram uses ..how should I put this...a media in their basic oil filter which isn't to restrictive when compared to other filters on the market.
---------------------------------
motorguy22:

"I think it is safe to say that when an engine fails,the person in question just thinks that it has failed.It is just something that happens,especially when it has several thousand miles on it.

They dont consider that a filter may have caused it.

As long as the engine is under warranty, then the service writer or whomever they have their car towed to will more than likely explain that it could be a filter problem.

Now, if the engine has 150,000 or whatever on it. Who owns these type of cars? Usually those that can least afford repairs. So their mechanic can/might/ maybe also tell them the same thing.

Otherwise you are basically saying only the most informed people send their filters back. Based on the total filters sent back to all filter companies, there's a lot of educated consumers then.


The failure is most likely from wear and tear that has been caused by the filter over the long haul.

This would be almost impossible to prove as being a filters fault.

The filter makers know this too.
Maybe they do. But then why do they warranty filters that cause a failure on an engine long outside the OEM's warranty? Even if it's on a rust bucket?

I once approved a warranty on a engine with over 750,000 miles on it. It had been rebuilt twice. Albeit it was on an over-the-road truck. But the fact is the filter failed and the customer got his repairs paid for.

 

[Filter guy]

As far as Rando's problem with his engine knocking noise..

I gave this some thought what with the 1450 miles I drove this week. So I will post a scenario or idea I have about it..

The knocking sound appeared when the oil was "cold". Went away in minutes after the oil warmed up.

1: You have an oil pump with a regulating valve which regulates the flow of oil.

2: You have a filter ( or engine block ) with a by-pass valve in it.

The regulating valve at the oil pump is responsible for regulating flow. When the oil gets into the filter ( and if it is empty of oil) this takes only a few seconds to fill the filter. By then the by-pass has opened up and allowed the necessary flow of oil to lubricate the engine. As it is the engine manufacturer which sets the opening pressure differential. This is so that the engine won't knock or be starved of oil.

If the by-pass does not open at all, then the result is a collapsed center tube and torn media.
Rando never claimed he saw this, so we'll assume this wasn't the case.

Which means the by-pass did open in order to allow the necessary flow.

There is some contention about the design of the Frams by-pass and anti-drain. The anti-drain leaking all the oil out should only cause a few seconds of knocking. Bad but not disasterous.
So even with a "poor" design in some peoples minds, I believe Rando's experience with his by-pass from Fram shows it was opening.

Now IF the by-pass does not open enough and let enough flow through...the regulating valve at the oil pump increases the flow to compensate. More flow, should open a sticking valve, as there is more pressure coming into the filter.

But what if the by-pass isn't sticking and is working as it should? What does that tell us about the flow?

IMHO..it is the oil pump and/or it's regulating valve which is the culprit. Maybe the pump pickup screen is blocked or damaged. But if not, then it gets back to the pump/regulator itself. As these are not things that most consumers mess with.

So why changing filters would the noise go away.
By going to a more restrictive media..maybe...maybe ..this extra back pressure even minute as it might be may have been enough for the regulating valve to operate better.

With the more open media in the basic Fram, there wasn't the same back pressure and with the by-pass operating "normally" there wouldn't be.

I'm not seeing a problem with the by-pass based on the information given. So there must be some other anamoly which helped solve the problem.

Just one mans guess...

< ducks and runs for cover...>

 

[motorguy222]

I was not implying that a car owner is stupid because they think that a rattle is normal.

It comes down to the point that many car owners dont know a lot about their cars mechanicals.

This is normal.

What they see when they are out and about and what friends and family tells them is wht they go by.

Since this is their form of information,they may be told and hear themselves that cars rattle.

They may be told that Fram is the best filter out there.

They may strike it up to a bad car when it is most likely the oil filter.

I once thought Fram was the best

I now know that they are less than desirable.

Most car owners dont think about a filter.

The filter states on the box that it meets the correct specs so they think it is OK.

It may say that it is the #1 filter.

This sounds great and they buy it.

As I stated,most dont know a whole lot about their cars mechanicals.

The filter companies know this and take advantage of such.

As far as someone blaming a filter for enginge damage.

I dont think this is a persons first thought,if it is even thought.

I think it is safe to say that when an engine fails,the person in question just thinks that it has failed.It is just something that happens,especially when it has several thousand miles on it.

They dont consider that a filter may have caused it.

The failure is most likely from wear and tear that has been caused by the filter over the long haul.

This would be almost impossible to prove as being a filters fault.

The filter makers know this too.