Collapsed filter media revisited

Status
Not open for further replies.
Really?

I personally like to know who my money goes to.
That's being socially responsible.
For example,
Ever buy candy from the kid with the rubbermaid tub who's sales pitch is to keep kids off of drugs and out of gangs?
One would be floored to find out where that money actually goes.
 
Yes, REALLY.

Again, PLEASE keep those things off this board. You don't have to save us. Do you somehow think that the group that congregates here needs your help in forming opinion ..or have some feeling of lacking in socially responsible behavior formation? You may believe so, but your efforts at social salvation are unwanted in this medium. If you feel compelled to share such things ...and have some social crusade that needs an outlet...take it somewhere else.

It's that simple. That's as warm and fuzzy as I can state this. This has nothing to do with collapsed media.
 
FG and KCTOM. I think you both need to take in consideration a few things.. you may have an opinion on how good or bad a filter is, but one thing you both seem to ignore is the fact that there are people having filter failures ( not necessarily "collapsed media, which I personally do not beleive comes from a filter fault)that do not send filters back to the companies, they just stop using that brand. Now we have someplace ( Bitog) that those people can share their experiences with each other. I personally have had Fram filters fail in my car. I do not have an engineering degree, not a physicist, a doctor, or even belong to the church of scientology, but I am NOT stupid, and do not take kindly to being referred to that as was posted earlier. I am sure most other people who read that, and have debated with KcTom in the past may have took offense to that personal attack as well. If I have start up noise, I change the filter, the noise goes away, It does not take rocket science to figure out what was the cause. and when other people have the same problem, with the same results, we don't need to send filters back to a company for them to evaluate them. KcTom and I debated in the past not about particular quality, but moreso of why his favourite orange filter's 'best' product, which, by the way, I agreed with as for quality, was so much more expensive than a basically identical filter for half the price. I currently run Supertech filters, I have never seen a problem out of any type that I have used. Does not mean that others have not either. Same with the Fram, some have, some have not. But calling everyone 'Stupid' because alot of people do have a problem with a particular brand, share their experiences, and others so-called "blindly follow" them, did it occor to either one of you that maybe this bias is because these people do not want to experience a 'potential' problem to begin with? If this is what you refer to as 'herd mentality', than maybe it is not so bad after all. In short order, we are all not stupid, and most of us, like the Average American, do not overextend OCI's, but usually find a 'happy medium' to follow. for example, My car calles for 7500 mile OCI for normal driving, 3750 for Severe, with filters every other change. Theoretically, my filters should last for 15000 miles. I Change my oils at 5000. when those 2 Frams 'failed' me (ADBV leaking), it was not hard to figure out that they were not meeting OEM specs. Simple as that--No degree or Experience in a filter factory to figure that out. I am a mechanic by trade, have been for 22 years. So no, I am not stupid, I just pay attention, get as much info about items as I can, add my own experiences to it, and get a result. Please try and keep in mind people who think like that. you would be suprised at how 'smart' some of us can be.....
 
My big problem is that people seem to equate cost with quality. I like the simplicity of the design of the Ecore. In many cases, I believe that quality can be maintained with clever design of inexpensive products. When FG says that the QC of a SuperTech filter is the same as a Mobil 1 or K&N, I believe him.

I don't particularly like Frams either. I don't think they necessarily engine killers, but the design choices and construction seem to be cheap to my eyes. That being said, when a Fram-built Honda OEM filter was mixed in with my order of Filtech ones, I didn't just chuck it in the trash. it didn't give me the warm and fuzzies, but I didn't freak out either.

I've got about 6 various Champ filters (SuperTech, ValuCraft, STP) with various designs (unbypassed, clicker, Ecore) sitting at home. They all seem to be well thought out designs although I know the clicker has been trashed here.

I do tend to believe that some people are a little too full of themselves on either side of the issue. Perhaps some people are a little too distracted by what they think they know when they look at a can that's been opened. Others may know more but don't understand how much of an impression can be made by visual inspection.
 
Concerning the following....
"Your are absolutely correct about the mob mentality here. I don't believe that there is a technique for the average person to effectively evaluate an oil filter. We just do not have the tools to measure the filtering effectiveness of an oil filter. As a result, everyone jumps on the Let's cut one open and see what's in there, bandwagon. That doesn't work. Or one guy has one filter that he doesn't think works right, and everone is pointing at that as an example of why so and so's filters are sub-par. "

Yeah, valvetrain noises at startup that go away when you change filter brands from Fram to anything else must be caused by something other than those Fram filters…
Yeah, holes in the paper and torn pleats are not a thing that us “average persons” can tell without using scientific equipment to detect either.
Right, cutting up used filters is an exercise best left to professionals….most of us “commoners” would just confuse ourselves…by actually looking…
What I have seen/heard myself personally is MUCH more than “something better than speculation or weak antidotal evidence.”….

Mob mentality???? How about normal common sense instead.

KCTom, Fram needs people just like you….
 
The odd thought just occured to me here.

it was not hard to figure out that they were not meeting OEM specs

..but suppose they are? Suppose they are considered a marginal appendage in the modern engine in terms of the difference in longevity? This might be the unarticulated statement that FG has been redundantly asserting all along. Kinda of a read between the lines deal.

offtopic.gif

However, Tim, people, even those of alleged intelligence, are prone to hysteria. You can see it in every off topic post as it heads out of bounds. Why do you think scandals are so effective in the media? They pander to this mob ..and yes, herding mentality. The facts don't really matter ..just the perception. Facts don't necessarily add up to truth. Spin doctors make a living out of turning myths into reality via perception of selective facts. They just let the masses fill in the implied blanks ..and they do. So anyone who can present any material, in an appropriate manner to depict the illusion of proof, is automatically given credance and deemed an equivalent value to "proof". Those who choose to assign it that value are merely victims of someone elses will and are truly led by the nose. The cause and effect relationship can just as easily term manipulation. This would be very near to living a life based souly upon the latest urban legend ...since you merely choose not to take the risk that it may be true.

None of this has anything to do with being stupid..it's merely a matter of behavioral characteristics of reacting to things you perceive as truth (believing everything you read, etc.). Keep in mind that you're reading an internet message board. All you are seeing is people who refuse to subscribe to hysterical or irrational changes in behavior simply upon perception. It doesn't matter if it's $0.50 more for one oil filter brand after another ...or avoiding one spring water company for one reported incidence of tainted product. This type of behavior predictabilty cost Wendy's million over a false allegation ...and you don't think "mob think" is a part of the majority of this population? Do you think that the membership here is any different?

Effectively you're looking at both sides (those who follow convention ..and those who do not) justifying their behavioral characteristics. Those who buck convention justify it to themselves ..and those who follow convention justify it too. In the process there's a critique of the other's behavioral characteristic.
 
Well said, but when you cross the line of calling people 'stupid' because you feel you know more than them, or saying that they know nothing because they never worked in a filter manufacturing plant, you set yourself above everyone else, and shut out what may be a very valuable set of ideas or opinions that may in fact, prove that a problem or condition exists, and belittle those people giving you that advice or opinion.
 
Agreed. I think we all need to try and eliminate the insults it these exchanges. This is certainly not limited any one person here.
cheers.gif
 
Well I don't recall calling anyone stupid. Maybe some inference was there if one read between the lines.

My point..or points is to educate from a filter manufactures POV.

I haven't seen any other filter manufacturers taking major exception to things I post. ( and I know some who read these boards from various filter companies)

In fact Pete C. (from Wix)took to task the methods of cutting open filters and problems when you do with media in another thread and was told to grow up.

Maybe because some of us have been in the trenches in the plants and understand how filters are made, that the misconceptions need to be adressed. And..really..if you ever went through a plant, you'd learn a lot. I don't care who's plant. It would answer a lot of questions one has. I had someone on tour who had been selling a brand of Champs for 30 years. Even he said, he'd never even imagined.
---------------------------------------

As for Fram and their anti-drain leaking. Does anyone in here KNOW the OEM spec? Some prefer silicon, and rightly so. It is a better material. But it is not the "spec" otherwise every filter would have to use that material.

Buna rubber or Nitrile, if you prefer, has been the rubber of choice for 20 years and more. Fram knows what grade. As does every filter company out there.

If you had your engine knocking and it was solved by switching filters...you more than likely still ended up with the exact same grade of rubber anti-drain in your next filter of choice. ( provided of course you didn't pay for the more expensive filter that has silicon). So if you stayed with a buna/nitrile anti-drain...then decide for yourself why your problems disappeared. Maybe it wasn't the anti-drain afterall.
wink.gif


But if your happy..then that's all that matters.
 
FG- "If you had your engine knocking and it was solved by switching filters...you more than likely still ended up with the exact same grade of rubber anti-drain in your next filter of choice. ( provided of course you didn't pay for the more expensive filter that has silicon). So if you stayed with a buna/nitrile anti-drain...then decide for yourself why your problems disappeared. Maybe it wasn't the anti-drain afterall."

Filter Guy,
You constantly try to shift any blame to anything besides the filter…as usual.
You show that you have no troubleshooting skills whatsoever. Without realizing it, you said it yourself actually…some filters just have better design than others.

“Another factor that affects the performance of the adbv valves besides just the material is the design. The thickness of material in certain strategic spots, location and shape/curve of flex points, creases, structural ribs etc can help offset the temperature related aging weakness sometimes.
Look at how the adbv valves on the WIX filters is shaped compared to other brands for the same application..they show a silicone adbv on the web page, but I used to get the Kmart house brand back when they were made by wix- they were rubber but designed the same…they seemed to hold up just fine. The Fram comparison would drain out routinely, even when used for short intervals…the material did not make that difference, the design did. That was just one of the reasons I stopped using Frams…”
 
Mel, is there any way that you can get an actual filter spec ..as in exactly what the OEM spec to the filter manufacturer is? I think that this would clear up a tremendous amount the ...hmmmm...apparent conflict here. You don't need the OEM name ..nor the filter application ...just a random spec from a north American passenger car ..we don't need to know whose.

After months of Mel's dialog here ...there's a little voice that has started getting just a little louder. Some of it is painfully obvious ..but there is a more ....hmmm...."quiet" statement being made.

The OEM spec ...isn't very specific ..nor detailed except in a very limited number of filters.

The lame Fram, with it's lame ADBV protects your OEM warranty...even though it routinely fails as an ADBV. If there were any "issues of magnetude" about this ...then surely the OEM spec would address it. It doesn't ..and obviously gives broad latitudes in filter construction.

Essentially ..."Sure PureOne is better than Fram. So? GM,Ford, Honda, and DC don't appear to care enough about it to configure the spec to assure a certain level of construction."

Now FG has basically, more or less, said this all along ..but not quite in that manner. I think that this simple message has been blurred by some reflex action (maybe "reflux" action
confused.gif
)
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Mel, is there any way that you can get an actual filter spec ..as in exactly what the OEM spec to the filter manufacturer is?
Click to expand...
I have heard that the manufacturers don't release filter specs except to the companies making filters for them. Supposedly most aftermarket filters are reverse engineered because of that.

I don't know that for a fact, but it's how the aftermarket parts industry in general has to work.
 
Perhaps so. But Champ does make many OEM ..so
dunno.gif
. I was hoping FG could obtain a spec ..perhaps one that was obsolete. In fact the actual spec's can be masked ..and merely the format can be shown.


What I'm thinking is ..suppose it's merely dimensional specs (can, gasket, thread)...must include ADBV (specifies silicon if needed ala FL400-S) ...must included bypass valve ...must have XXyy gms of holding capacity...min Beta spec ...xx flow via ISO XXXYYYZZZ.

And that's about it..
 
Rando:

"Total" design of the element, by-pass, and anti-drain varies from manufacturer to manufacturer within the can itself.

I do not question personal experiences. However, is it not reasonable to think that there are many others in America that own the same vehicle/engine and not experience the rattle noise using Fram? I'll anticipate your responce as being it's because that's what they expect so they don't switch to another brand.

Fram has designed their by-pass to fit in their element and their anti drain to cover the inlet holes as a complete unit.

While you , and some others, keep claiming I don't "blame" the filter...can you not also consider every engine built is not exactly the same either.

There are anomolies that happen.

If various car manufactureres have cars returned under lemon laws, does that mean you won't buy their car? If so..your selection of vehicle manufacturers may be severly limited.

Filter companies do warranty their filters.

But every filter brand that uses buna/nitrile rubber anti-drain will have a potential for leaks under certain conditions as the OCI is reached or extended. Extreme heat or cold effects the compound. Everyones compound. Certain extra added additives can effect the anti-drain. Not to mention sludge that or contaminant that becomes lodged in a critical area.
---------------------------------------

Gary:

I've kinda answered this before in another thread.

I went through some of the things that make up a spec..but not actually posted the "numbers". The reason I don't post the numbers is because I don't have them..lol.

The anti-drain must not leak X amount of oil in Y amount of time.

By-pass settings are OEM specified. The reason that "some" catalogs have different opening setting ratings is the different flow rates at which that company tests it's valves. ( in most cases)

Filter Companies are aware of the OEM OCI and requirement for minimum dirt holding capacity. This is a test whereby at a certain termination point pressure drop across the element, the filter must have retained X grams of contaminant. The pressure drop figure is when the OEM considers the element to be "to dirty". In actual fact the element still has "life" left and no OEM has the filter run until plugged. ( unless things have changed since I left but I doubt it)

This is done to minimize the by-pass opening up to much. An argument which is fun to read in here as to who believes how much a by-pass opens up and for how long. Those who extend their oil drain intervals have a greater potential for their by-pass opening more often and longer should their filter "see" more contaminant. Again, only the owner probably knows the maintenance practices he/she uses.

Media efficiency "spec" is actually low/moderate for OEM's. It is the aftermarket which fuels the high efficiency race.

It is also the filter companies who created the "Micron" monster and now "Beta" monster.
As far as I know, not one OEM requires a certain micron or beta for the media in their oil filter.
( air filters never have been rated by "microns"..fwiw)

How that all came about is because the micron rating was a by-product of the testing to meet or exceed performance specs. It was a simple tool for simple folks..like salesmen and marketing departments. And now internet users.
tongue.gif


Err..gotta go to work now. I'm in Little Rock. Ark. Maybe i'll add more later..
 
FG- I do not question personal experiences. However, is it not reasonable to think that there are many others in America that own the same vehicle/engine and not experience the rattle noise using Fram? I'll anticipate your responce as being it's because that's what they expect so they don't switch to another brand.

Exactly, I used Frams regularly once upon a time, that noise was a regular irritant and I tried everything I could to make it go away. I had no idea back then that the filter could cause that noise- I had read that Frams were the best so of course I believed they were. Only when I read that Frams caused that noise routinely did I even think about changing. I bought a new filter, (ACDelco at that time) changed the filter only- not the oil, and the noise never re-occurred. Since that time I have read repeatedly (not just here mind you ) that this is a known issue with Fram filters..

The Frams are a bad design, their adbv and bypass design is ineffective, their media area is insufficient… say whatever you want- I don’t care.

Everything you say on here is just trying to put a spin on legitimate information, or a cover-up for poorly made and designed filters. You have shown repeatedly that you do NOT know what you are talking about, yet you just keep on and on raving about all this inside knowledge of what’s going on in the industry, or dear old ChampLabs ….but you can’t tell us about it of course…
You do more to stifle progress here, than you do to further it.
I am not impressed, in the least, with you.
 
quote:
Originally posted by y_p_w:
There are plenty of people here running used oil analysis on engines using Champ filters. Has there been any that would indicate that there's a high incidence of filter failure that might affect engine longevity?

I'm pretty sure GM has thoroughly tested samples of the filters they buy (from Champ and others), down to running used oil analysis and cutting open the filters in their test or company car fleets. If I were them, I might even offer free oil filters and and/or oil in exchange for employees returning oil samples and used filters.

My particular opinion is that it probably doesn't really cost all that much to make a quality oil filter. I've used Champion Labs filters and will continue to do so. And yes - I've taken a hacksaw to a few, and there was nothing that would dissuade me from using them. Now Fram is a different matter.
Click to expand...
I notice the only response to this post was mine suggesting it was a good question. Well, does anybody have any numbers to support their opinion?
 
There would appear to be lack of supporting delatarious co-evidence to support that the use of cheaper filters results in more wear. The only real indicator of good filtration that we have is insolubles.

The problem we have here in using UOA as an indicator of filtration is that we don't have a good variance in useage. There are some that do extended drains ..but the typical useage is not mileage specific. It's time convenient and falls typically below any factory recommendation not necessarily out of anything being "used up" ..but otherwise not falling into an annual cadance, or rhythum, of convenience.

Otherwise most treat filtration symptomatically. They respond to start up noise ...etc. While this is all fun and whatnot ..it really doesn't tell you whether the filter is doing a good job or not and whether it is reducing or increasing any wear in any apparent defect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

F
Virgin Champ XL PH2840XL C&P - Toyota 90915-YZZN1 equivalent
Replies
16
Views
2K
ZeeOSix
F
Virgin Champ PH2840 C&P - Toyota 90915-YZZN1 equivalent
Replies
8
Views
2K
53' Stude
J
New Amsoil EA15K13 different than Fram Endurance from 2023
Replies
7
Views
5K
Jack_Kieran
M
4 New Filters Cut Open
2 3
Replies
52
Views
6K
Alex123
H
Summary of non-destructive Fram filter testing (and a Carquest Premium added)
2
Replies
25
Views
6K
Hatsuwr
Back
Top Bottom