Close up on Toyota/CTS gas pedal.

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I like having a high-tech vehicle with throttle-by-wire, dynamic stability control, electric-assisted steering, etc. Old technology is for museums! These systems are getting more refined and lower-cost all the time. My 2009 fairly-inexpensive car has all the technology of my parent's 2004 BMW 3-series that cost three times as much.

And we do like our high-tech synthetic oils, don't we?

As for diagnostics - well, a light comes on and you read a code. The TBW system in the Suzuki has 14 codes.

I also think it's interesting to note that the Toyota fault (as so far identified) is *purely* mechanical in nature. Given where the blame has been generally placed do we not see the irony there?
 
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
I like having a high-tech vehicle with throttle-by-wire, dynamic stability control, electric-assisted steering, etc. Old technology is for museums! These systems are getting more refined and lower-cost all the time. My 2009 fairly-inexpensive car has all the technology of my parent's 2004 BMW 3-series that cost three times as much.


Problem is that from a standpoint of driver control feedback, involvement, handling dynamics and fun factor I am certain that the most modern cars of today are NOT nearly as involving (FUN) to drive as those of a couple of decades ago or more.

It is obvious to me that the mfgs (generally ) are focusing on computerized gadgets and fluff to take the place of selling a product that is ACTUALLY FUN TO DIRVE.

Sorry but LESS (note I'm not saying NONE at all) computerization not MORE is better if you really like to drive for fun!

When it comes to what I WANT (not what marketing hacks want to force me to "need" ) it is terrific handling dynamics, purity in driver control feedback (steering, clutch, brakes, ) a generally LIGHT weight chassis, that means that I would like non assist steering, a cable actuated clutch pedal, and cable actuated gas pedal) Not a out and out sports car but something like a MKII VW Golf GTI benchmark, because a some comfort and daily practicality is required. Supportive but comfortable seats...and very important a fairly simple car to repair.

Cars of today are way too complex and expensive to repair even at the dealer level there are often times many issues with actually finding and correcting a problem.

SIMPLICITY IS GENIUS!
 
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Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Problem is that from a standpoint of driver control feedback, involvement, handling dynamics and fun factor I am certain that the most modern cars of today are NOT nearly as involving (FUN) to drive as those of a couple of decades ago or more.
Hmm, the specs of this car are nearly identical to the GTI MkII. Indulge me a little and watch this: YouTube - Swift Sport Test on Fifth Gear
Swift Sport lap times
VW GTI MkII lap times
There are no times from the same track but you can see the specs are very similar.
 
Something that I think is positive with the proposed failure mode is that it's mechanical and not electrical.

If the throttle sticks wide open, then it has to have been made wide open by your foot in the first place, and your response will surely be better than f it were electrical and suddenly ran the engine wide open.

I say this having had 3 wide open engine incidents in 25 years.

1 was a self made PCV port/tube that fell down the middle of one of the carbies, holding it very wide open after a rev in neutral. surprised me, but still managed to switch off before it went through the roof.

2 was the flipping off of a (single) throttle return spring on a mechanical linkage. Everything just fell wide open. That was hard to respond correctly to, as the car started rocketting off, when my inertial guidance system was expecting steady state behaviour. Instinct worked out to apply the brakes heavily while I worked out an escape plan, which ended up being ... switch engine off.

3 was a stuck throttle that could only be replicated when on a loose dirt surface, and throttle mashed, and didn't come up. Went for snap change, and revs through the roof, instant switch off.

Thus my reasoning that a sticking linkage that doesn't recover from heavy throttle is way better than something just snapping open.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Something that I think is positive with the proposed failure mode is that it's mechanical and not electrical.

If the throttle sticks wide open, then it has to have been made wide open by your foot in the first place, and your response will surely be better than f it were electrical and suddenly ran the engine wide open.

I say this having had 3 wide open engine incidents in 25 years.

1 was a self made PCV port/tube that fell down the middle of one of the carbies, holding it very wide open after a rev in neutral. surprised me, but still managed to switch off before it went through the roof.

2 was the flipping off of a (single) throttle return spring on a mechanical linkage. Everything just fell wide open. That was hard to respond correctly to, as the car started rocketting off, when my inertial guidance system was expecting steady state behaviour. Instinct worked out to apply the brakes heavily while I worked out an escape plan, which ended up being ... switch engine off.

3 was a stuck throttle that could only be replicated when on a loose dirt surface, and throttle mashed, and didn't come up. Went for snap change, and revs through the roof, instant switch off.

Thus my reasoning that a sticking linkage that doesn't recover from heavy throttle is way better than something just snapping open.



That is the only advantage of a mechanical connection that I can see. The throttle would not go WOT unless the driver demanded it, with an electronic throttle a bad signal can cause a WOT, so the driver is cought by surprise because he/she did not demand it.
 
I have a bad feeling in all of this, no reason just a hunch. I feel that they really don't have a 100% fool proof solution just yet, and this problem might just rear its ugly head again, especially for cars fixed early on in the recall. They have millions of cars to go through, and some how I think they're going to look for a cheap fix. I hope it doesn't bite them in the arse. Like I said a hunch and nothing more. I hope I'm wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Something that I think is positive with the proposed failure mode is that it's mechanical and not electrical.

If the throttle sticks wide open, then it has to have been made wide open by your foot in the first place, and your response will surely be better than f it were electrical and suddenly ran the engine wide open.

I say this having had 3 wide open engine incidents in 25 years.

1 was a self made PCV port/tube that fell down the middle of one of the carbies, holding it very wide open after a rev in neutral. surprised me, but still managed to switch off before it went through the roof.

2 was the flipping off of a (single) throttle return spring on a mechanical linkage. Everything just fell wide open. That was hard to respond correctly to, as the car started rocketting off, when my inertial guidance system was expecting steady state behaviour. Instinct worked out to apply the brakes heavily while I worked out an escape plan, which ended up being ... switch engine off.

3 was a stuck throttle that could only be replicated when on a loose dirt surface, and throttle mashed, and didn't come up. Went for snap change, and revs through the roof, instant switch off.

Thus my reasoning that a sticking linkage that doesn't recover from heavy throttle is way better than something just snapping open.



That is the only advantage of a mechanical connection that I can see. The throttle would not go WOT unless the driver demanded it, with an electronic throttle a bad signal can cause a WOT, so the driver is cought by surprise because he/she did not demand it.



depends on the system used. Like others have said some cars use a dual sensor set up that compares the level to each other. If the difference is to large it falls back to like idle.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
An oil impregnated bush should be adequate. As he said the root cause remains unknown (to us).


I think its either electronic noise, software faults, or a combination of the two. I absolutely do NOT think that the pedal is physically sticking. I could be wrong, but that mechanical design shouldn't be at all likely to stick, IMO.
 
What I don't get is how is the nearly identical looking Denso made pedal (not involved in the recall) any different in design?? Sorry, but gluing a piece of flat metal onto the CTS pedal so it doesn't have as full range of motion isn't a fix in my mind either. I have read of a case where the pedal had full range of motion up and down after taking off but it was unresponsive, how does the pedal mod fix that??

What I am surprised is that they haven't found a common thread in all the reported incidences, mileage, temperatures, vehicle setup (aftermarket accessories for possible RF interference). Doesn't the black box reveal anything?

I went and tested my pedal (40K miles on it) and it snapped back hard enough to nearly break my knuckle, I can't see that sticking anytime soon. I have never had a single issue with it either.
 
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Pablo
An oil impregnated bush should be adequate. As he said the root cause remains unknown (to us).

I think its either electronic noise, software faults, or a combination of the two. I absolutely do NOT think that the pedal is physically sticking. I could be wrong, but that mechanical design shouldn't be at all likely to stick, IMO.

+1

A fix they've been working on for years suddenly gets done overnight???? This issue is unresolved and this mechanical fix is nothing more than fluff for the masses IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: wapacz
... depends on the system used. Like others have said some cars use a dual sensor set up that compares the level to each other. If the difference is to large it falls back to like idle.
Not only that but on my car the throttle motor has a power-disconnect relay and a return spring. I'm my decades of experience designing and troubleshooting automated industrial machinery nearly every system failure turns out to be mechanical in nature and I believe it will be the same in this case.
I'm continually amused that the TBW system is the target of so much distrust. A fear of the unknown most likely.
 
I have had a pedal get stuck under a floor mat in my saturn just this past year.

It is quite frightening. My car is a five speed, so I just dumped it into neutral, and let the motor bounce off the rev limiter several times, while I pulled the floor mat away.

I could easily see how many people would lose control of the car, and not know what to do in a panic state like this.

The problem with the toyota is not just the pedal, it is the system that they use for changing gears as well. Some of those cars have push button start, and no gear lever. At this point, I would have no idea what to do either, especially if it was a loaner car.
 
Irrespective of the details, the move away from standardized controls was bound to cause problems. And this particular defect illustrates that perfectly.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
ask ford and chrysler about nice designs let down by shoody suppliers. Add in margin pricing constraints and an upper mgmt who can override QA stop shipment decisions to meet their shedule. Happenes to me all the time


+1 Exactly.....could be one forced shipment of bad shafts or bushings by supplier upper management motivated to make the quarterly numbers. Mix in 5000 bad shafts in with 2 million ETC units...you have a recall nightmare.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Pablo
An oil impregnated bush should be adequate. As he said the root cause remains unknown (to us).


I think its either electronic noise, software faults, or a combination of the two. I absolutely do NOT think that the pedal is physically sticking. I could be wrong, but that mechanical design shouldn't be at all likely to stick, IMO.



Here is the 'official fix' from Toyota. It's a mechanical interference issue ... supposedly solved by a metal 'shim'.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/01/autos/toyota_gas_pedal_fix/index.htm

toyota_gas_pedal_recall_fix.top.jpg
 
Not really mechanical interference - the shim changes the pivot point under the lever that acts as a pedal friction damper. The design of this uses the fixed end of the pedal return spring to apply that force.
Interesting is that is does not seem to indicate whether the fault is still considered bushing corrosion, or the damper wearing and applying too much force. A touch of silicone lube or grease may have worked just as well.

This link is worth a look too.

There also seems to be considerable opinion on other boards (e.g. Rav4world) that there is still more to this than just a sticking pedal situation.
 
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Not really mechanical interference - the shim changes the pivot point under the lever that acts as a pedal friction damper.


The way I'm reading the information is that it is indeed a mechanical friction/binding issue. Look at the photo and the explanation that the shim decreases the mechanical friction at the contact points of the mechanism.
 
I am not one for conspiracy theories, BUT it sure is interesting that this is getting SOOO much media coverage AFTER the government has taken over Detroit.

Are they that concerned with their built vehicles. I would buy a Toyota, as I have over the past 20 years before any Detroit vehicle.

Cheers
 
Originally Posted By: DanJ
I am not one for conspiracy theories, BUT it sure is interesting that this is getting SOOO much media coverage AFTER the government has taken over Detroit.

Are they that concerned with their built vehicles. I would buy a Toyota, as I have over the past 20 years before any Detroit vehicle.

Cheers

That sure is goofy, I think everyone forgets how much bad Media attention the big three get even for stupid recalls that don't kill anybody.
 
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