Clickers, Frams, and E-cores, oh my (pics)

[TC]

"Is it possible to look into the Champion-made filter and identify the clicker valve?"
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"Yes...look into the filter and you'll see the big center hole surrounded by the smaller ones on the top of the filter endplate."
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To expand just a bit further, you're specifically looking for six small holes in a circular pattern at the far base plate, looking into the filter's center hole. A sheet metal spring presses against the back of the holes (covering the holes up -- the bypass valve is therefore closed), therefore making the six holes appear as barely visible circles in the base plate.

 

[Greaser]

quote:

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Originally posted by TC:
"Is it possible to look into the Champion-made filter and identify the clicker valve?"
-------------------------------------------
"Yes...look into the filter and you'll see the big center hole surrounded by the smaller ones on the top of the filter endplate."
----------------------------------------
To expand just a bit further, you're specifically looking for six small holes in a circular pattern at the far base plate, looking into the filter's center hole. A sheet metal spring presses against the back of the holes (covering the holes up -- the bypass valve is therefore closed), therefore making the six holes appear as barely visible circles in the base plate.

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True..better yet take a small flashlight into the store with you and up-end oil filters looking into them for the faint circles...when the big butterfly net goes over you tell em' Bob sent you

 

[jthorner]

Boy Filter Guy, you just keeping digging your own hole wider and lower. Why are you so adamant about defending the honor of Champion labs and making excuses for the product?

I don't know if you realize it or not, but the "meets standards", "failures covered by warranty" and "it's cheap, what do you expect?" attitude you are portraying are all hallmarks of everything which has gone wrong with US based automotive design and manufacturing. The Japanese will continue to kick **** because they simply do not operate that way.

For example, I don't see why nearly every other filter manufacturer can get the pleats inside their oil filters evenly distributed while Champion labs filters rarely do so. Lubeowner's failure photographs seem to support the idea that these unevenly spaced pleats are a design weakness which results in non-catasrophic failure in at least some situations. Fortunately most oil filter failures are non-catastrophic and thus never result in the kind of obvious engine failures which would trigger the failure analysis process you seem so very proud of.

One thing the Japanese have taught the world is that consistency of manufacturing is a very good thing. Unfortunately the volume US makers of many products believe in good-enough design and manufacturing practices ... which is one of the reasons by US based design and manufacturing of all things automotive has been in retreat for decades.

John

 

[labman]

It seems to me this thread is more about ranting and raving than facts. In the 3 years I have been here, most people have respected the Champ filters and I don't remember any reports of torn media in the cut open filters. Please supply the URL if you know of any. Many people, apparently rightly distrusted the clicker bypasses. Suddenly we have a new member finding gobs of problems with torn media. Remember, they are all non GM with the clicker. At this point, no way would I run a clicker in a non GM application. It could be that they are OK on reasonable OCI's and viscosity. I think this does tell us something about the murky area of how often a filter needs to go into bypass. It sounds like a strong argument for bigger, better filters, thinner oil and shorter OCI's. I won't want a filter that survives the OCI, only because it let large quantities of unfiltered oil by. The Champs may be fine for normal service, but Lubeowner need an affordable filter that will stand up to his customers what ever they are doing.

So, let's be a little more civil while we gather more data. Both Lubeowner and Filter Guy have unique information and are sharing it with us. So who has some old filters in their trash to cut apart and share with everybody?

 

[TurboJim]

quote:

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Originally posted by John W. Colby:
I say if it falls apart, it is a cheap filter. It should hang together at LEAST 3 times the expected 3k miles because THAT is what "real life" customers do with their cars.

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On a FRAM Extra Guard box: Recommended change interval for your oil and oil filter is 3,000 miles / 5,000 KM.

On a Super Tech box: Super Tech filters satisfy new car warranties when installed according to instructions and replaced at intervals recommended by vehicle and engine manufacturers.

I don't know of anyone personally who would not think it important to have their oil & filter changed on a regular basis.

I've cut open a few oil filters myself and never seen any concerns, even when I thought I was going to.

If I did run my oil changes out to 9,000 miles and saw some sort of a failure in the oil filter I wouldn't blame the filter, I'd blame myself.

 

[Filter guy]

Well I appreciate the comments.

But because lubeowner says the filter has failed..there are others jumping on the bandwagon.

I've seen oil filters cut open since 1982. Long before clicker valves were thought of. I've seen pleats like the ones in the pictures. And worse.

What we do not have is specific information,, do we?

What picture is for what brand of filter, how many miles were on the filter between oil changes, what brand of oil was in the engine before the change, how many total miles on the engine. Even some simple things like did you add any oil in between changes. Have you put any other chemicals in the oil system ( like a fix oil leak, or inhibitor additive). i won't even mention did any of his customers use oil analysis or would lubeowner next time he sees an E-core on one of his customers to take an oil sample himself and send it off for analysis. Then when he cuts the filter open and thinks it a shoddy one, he can wait for the anylsis to come back and have a little more data.

But even after all that..lubeowner has claimed if you reread what he has said..he has a problem with one filter which the pleat wasn't glued into the end cap properly. I agree that one was a problem.

Yet, it seems a number of people are on the band wagon because of shoddy manufacturing. How so?

How can lubeowner or others in here determine that the clicker valve did or didn't work properly by looking at a picture? Wavy pleats happened long before clicker valves were invented and are not a product of any by-pass valve malfunction. Years of testing by filter companies identify this problem with water or cooolant in the oil. Simple as.

Ripped or torn pleats ,again, have happened long before clicker valves were invented. This is a product of over pressurization, whereby the oil pressure regulating valve sends excess pressure to the filter. Now some in here are wanting to blame the clicker valve. Maybe some other engineer can correct me but isnt the clicker valve like an on/off switch? Which means it is open or closed. The spring type valves work on the pressure opening them..slowly. Now again, correct me if i'm wrong..if excess pressure comes into the filter the clicker valve will react quicker or worst case as quick as one with a spring that needs to be compressed.

So yeah, the pics look bad. And if a layman wants to lay the blame on some new technology..have at it. What I hear from those who have done extensive testing is something different. And as I have mentioned before, as with any industry even the filter industry is cutthroat. If the E-core design is poor, the clicker valve terrible..then the other filter companies will send out their own testing to sell against it or take customers away from Champ. Anyone seen anything on another filter companies website yet with their fitler tested v E-core? And specific mention of the clicker valve?

I would also wager...for those old enough to remember...there was a time when people used straight weight oil in their cars and wouldn't have anything to do with multi-viscosity oils. There were rumours and "real world" testimonials from friends and mechanics who said multivis is to light, won't work, would never use it in my car, etc. What type viscosity oil do you use now?

The same goes with the E-core filter. If you don't like the new technology, don't use it.

If you don't like Fram, don't use it.
They only make millions upon millions upon milions upon millions every year.

If you don't like another brand, then don't use that one.

Somehow those cars keep rolling down the road with those type of filters on the engine...even the ones that lubeowner serviced.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by jthorner:
One thing the Japanese have taught the world is that consistency of manufacturing is a very good thing.

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Yes. It can result in products that consistently fail, the same way, every time.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
So who has some old filters in their trash to cut apart and share with everybody?

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I have an ST2 on my 1996 Ford Contour right now. It has ~700 miles on it. I'll run it for another 3000 miles. I'll cut it apart.

 

[Clement]

This whole thing seems to be getting a bit out of hand.

What Lubeowner is doing is not a scientific test by any means, but it is more valuable. He has empirical data on the used condition of a whole bunch of filters.

Regardless of Champions quality control, there are failed filters here. Failed in this context are filters that allow oil to bypass the filter media as in holes/tears in the media.

It has been noted that there is a correlation between a certian type/style of filter and failed media.

This is actual data. I don't see how an argument can be made against it.

Per the scientific method, once we have emperical data, a theory should be constructed to explain the data.

The theory(s) is that the specific type of bypass valve is faulty and/or poor manufacturing quality.

Now in the real world, the owners of the vehicles with the failed filters most likely would have no idea that the filters had failed. In the 12 years I've been changing the oil on my vehicles, I have no idea if any of the filters had failed internally. How would I know? I never cut them open. Who does, except for the people on this board.

I am sure the initial quality of Champion filters is up to the ISO standard. However their testing may not reflect real world conditions. It is very difficult to construct a test that duplicates what a customer will do to a product. **** , people can break hammers!

I am curious about Champions leak test on new filters. It is probably pneumatic and checks for air flow at various pressures. I'm guessing, but this seems the most reasonable. This would be able to catch any internal leaks. However, after a few thousand miles under 'normal' driving conditions a certian style of filter is showing failures. This is real data and is what needs to be looked at.

It would be very interesting to see what Champions labs say about some of the failed filters. I am sure they could reassemble the internal components in a new can for their testing. That would not be difficult to do, and most likely have procedures for doing just that type of testing.

my $0.02

Edited for spelling - I have nothing against Champion, and use them on my wife's car, but I find the apparent dismissal of Lubeowners empirical data regarding these filters as very curious.

 

[motorguy222]

Regardless of if a filter is $2 or $10 dollars,it should last a certain length of time.

This sounds as if it may be a cop out,in other words,a cheap filter means that it may fail.

This doesnt sound right.If a cheap filter is automatically going to fail because it is cheap,then we need to stop buying ANY regular filter MADE by Champ.

I think lubeowner is doing a good job and he needs to keep it up.

I also have worked in manufacturing,I cant say that Champ is or has been a little on the shady side in their filter making but it does happen in industry.

We can look at the past and see MANY products that were tested before being allowed to be sold to the public ONLY to have that same product recalled at a later date because it wasnt what it had been made out to be.

An oil filter is and would be a prime area to be shady,Why?,because few people are going to cut one open and see what it looks like inside.

An oil filter is basically a product that is hidden from the public,you dont know what you are getting inside of the can.

The can could be empty and most would never know this.

A failed oil filter will probably not cause an engine to seize right at that moment(unless it is stopped up),especially with the type of failures that lubeowner is reporting.

The failures in the filter material would most likely cause long term damage that the owner of the car will probably never know about since they more than likely will trade the car off.

The second or third owner would be getting a car that may have damage but they have no way of knowng it may have been caused by a filter.

I have used Champ filters for some time now,I dont know if this is a good idea.

 

[bighead]

I'm new here, but have been following this thread daily, and all I can say is Amen. This is real world data. I use M1 filters on my car, and after seeing those pics I am very tempted to cut mine open on my next oil change and see what is really going on in there (BTW does anybody have a plasma cutter handy? lol). If I were a quickie lube regular (read = brainwashed

)I would be like

at the site of those filters.

 

[teamDFL]

quote:

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Originally posted by TurboJim:
If I did run my oil changes out to 9,000 miles and saw some sort of a failure in the oil filter I wouldn't blame the filter, I'd blame myself.

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Even on a new Honda with 10,000 mile OCI?

 

[brianl703]

I posted in another thread (or maybe this one) that I cut a Fram "Mileguard" filter that had been in use for over 8000 miles apart.

Nothing wrong with it. The ADBV was still flexible too.

 

[Filter guy]

I think this thread has about run it course. There seems to be two camps. One is ready to blame the filter, then there's me..

and maybe a few others who would like more information.

So here is a proposal for Lubeowner as this is the second time he's cut open filters and posted pics:

I propose he do this again with more empirical information.

The next time he is prepared to cut open filters then add this information for each and every filter he takes off:

Filter Use Survey

1: Year, Make, Model, and engine type of the vehicle
2: Miles since last oil change.
3: Total miles on vehicle
4: Type of oil at last oil change and viscosity.
5: Was any oil added since last oil change or any other product added to the oil.
6: Any service work done on oil/fuel/air/cooling system since last oil change

Then for his lube crew;
7: Oil level on dipstick:
Within normal range, low, no reading.
8: Brand of filter element and part number.
[ You can type this out yourself and have your customers fill out the top portion. Either lubeowner or someone in here can work up a spreadsheet to load the data]

I will also offer up to 8 or 9 oil analysis sample kits for the worst offenders..low oil readings or high mileage since last oil change. This will give us some data to go by on those owners who do not perform routine maintenance. Of course oil analysis is best when done on the same engine with every oil change but we won't have that luxury.

And if he needs help in doing this, i'll offer my son to come over and help out as he lives in Lake Oswego Oregon and probably is within 30 minutes of his shop. My son knows little about oil filters so this will be an education for him and thanx to Office Depot laying of customer service managers nationwide, he's out of work and has the time.

Or if lubeowner wants to wait, i'll be in Oregon the last week of September, he can do the filter use survey at that time and we can cut the filters open together. I'll also bring a VHS tape or DVD of how Champ builds filters and the engineering/quality control that they do, if he'd like to have a look. And i'll explain what isn't on the video.

 

[Clement]

I also would like to see more information as proposed above. I would also like to hear what Champion's labs have to say on the filters.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

I’ve cut open at least a few dozen filters. Most were unused, some were Champions. Of the Champs, some had the “clicker” bypass (a misnomer in my estimation), and others had the front end bypass. IMO, the “clicker” Champs aren’t the only ones that appear restrictive.

Of all the used filters I’ve cut open (approximately a dozen), none have had any apparent damage. Most were run 3K to 5K miles for 4 to 6 months. A few were run 2K or less. The two used Champions with the “clicker” bypass I’ve cut open were all in use less than 2K miles, during warm months with 10W30 oil.

It does seem odd that lubeowner is seeing so many torn elements among the Frams and “clicker” Champs. From what he’s stated, it appears that the filters were used for vehicle manufacturer recommended intervals. It’s not stated what weight oil he typically uses. Since he’s seeing these issues now, it could be related to cold weather.

What’s most puzzling is that he’s reporting such a high “failure” rate. Since it’s happening with more than one brand, it seems unlikely that it would be batches of filters with defects. Since the “problems” seem so widespread among his customer base, it also seems unlikely that it could be some oil additive outside his control, or some particular driving/operational practice.

I have a hard time believing Champion, or even Fram, produce low cost oil filters with media that typically fails within 5K miles, with normal weight oils, on relatively new vehicles, during typical winter conditions. But that is what is being reported by lubeowner.

I’m no big fan of either Fram or the low cost Champion filters, but really seems like the problems reported by lubeowner must be somehow related to the practices (unintentional) at his place of business. However, if it is related to practice, one would think it would also cause problems with the other filter brands. Unless the other filters he’s using/installing are more robust to his practice.

At any rate, he appears to be very concerned about these issues and their affect on his customers. Hopefully, he can get to the bottom of what’s happening and correct it.

I would be very surprised if Fram or Champion were of much help to him. When it comes to warranty, big manufacturers like to make excuses and blame the user. And they are generally much better at asking questions than answering them. If lubeowner sends back some of the torn filters, Big Filter Company will probably ask him a bunch of questions related to product installation and use, and when he can’t “prove” the mileage, oil used, date installed/removed, and a bunch of other stuff to their satisfaction, Big Filter Company will tell him he had no reason to suspect the filter was bad, he shouldn’t have cut open the filter, and the damage was probably caused by improper installation or his unprofessional disassembly.

If it were me, I’d go ahead and send a few of the damaged filters back to the manufacturer. But I wouldn’t wait on them to act. In the mean time, I’d double check my practices, eliminate any oil additives (if applicable), and verify that the oil was the proper weight/viscosity. If I found nothing amiss, I’d consider switching over to another filter brand that’s proven successful as soon as practical.

 

[teamDFL]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:
I’m no big fan of either Fram or the low cost Champion filters, but really seems like the problems reported by lubeowner must be somehow related to the practices (unintentional) at his place of business. However, if it is related to practice, one would think it would also cause problems with the other filter brands. Unless the other filters he’s using/installing are more robust to his practice.

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I do not understand how you can come to the conculsion that the failures are realted to his practice. What is he doing that would cause the failures?

 

[motorguy222]

One thing that filterguy said made me think.He is more or less saying that Champ filters meet the specs set by the auto maker and that the oil that is used may be the problem.

I ask this.Isnt the oil that is used made to meet the auto specs also?

It would only seem reasonable that lubeowner is using the proper SL/SM oil,we ALL know that these oils at the minimum pass SAE standards.

Now,if the oil passes the standards that are required,how is it the fault of the oil that the filters are tearing/ripping while is use?

This doesnt sound right.

As others have stated,a company can spend $$$$$$ and still have a bad product,we see this quite often.

The real thing here is that the filters that are bad are in a rather wide range of autos,this just cant be an oil or antifreeze related problem.

It may be a cold weather problem,the filter material is just not strong enough to withstand the thick oil.If so,this is a flaw in the way/material that the filter is made.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Regardless of how cheap or poorly designed some may believe certain filters are, I’m having a hard time accepting the fact that many low cost filters will suffer from torn media if used with a proper weight oil (free of OTC additives) in typical engines within the recommended time period and mileage during Oregon winters.

I consider lubeowner's practices to be the most likely cause of the filter failures since:

1) He’s reporting a huge failure rate, far beyond any reasonable industry standard.
2) There’s appears to be nothing unique about his geographic environment or his customer base.
3) It’s happening on products from more than one filter manufacturer.
4) He’s claiming to be using the filters within the manufacturer’s recommended time/mileage period.
5) His customer base appears to be reasonably broad. (This assumption may be incorrect).
6) I've never found any media damage in any of the few (dozen or so) filters I've cut open.

It sounds like lubeowner is doing everything correctly. I just find it hard to believe that the subject filters are so poorly designed and made that they can't withstand the (fairly typical) conditions he describes without media damage.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

I thought Lubeowner was only having problems with 2 types filters,
Frams -long time suspect design, crappy design internal bypass valve
Champion -one instance with no internal bypass, and several with the "clicker" design bypass.

If a filter's internal bypass does not DO ITS JOB there is no way to expect the cartridge to handle even normal use, let alone any abnormal use...pressure spikes that the bypass did not alleviate would easily cause the damage that the pictures showed.

Lubeowner's first responsibility is to his customers, the last thing he wants is for a filter that he installs on a customer vehicle to fail under ANY condition...that customer would always blame him because he used it. If he even suspects what he is currently suspecting....that the Champion design clicker valve is NOT DOING ITS JOB, I imagine he would take about a half second and start using something else,,,,biggest dillemma would just be choosing a new brand.
Now as to LUBEOWNERS duty to the rest of us hungry wolves out here just itching to see the background info on these affected filters, yeah we'd all love to see that stuff. (I'm sure we all watch car crashes too..)

Maybe Champion would send their representative to LUBEOWNERS shop and let him start collecting data on all these removed filters,,,let him write down which brands have damage and what oil/oci/time of day/color of vehicle/amount of fuel in tank/air pressure in tires/brand of tires/age of driver/length of driver's foot/angle of sun/wind direction ...let's see what else can we blame the filter failure on....

Cmon folks, the only thing LUBEOWNER could actually be doing to cause this problem is actually installing the filter...which doesn't sound like will be continueing.
Maybe FILTER GUY will get a free trip out of this?....then maybe we will start seeing some new posts in the "Do you drink while working?" topic..

That said, I have been using those Supertech/Champion filters for quite a while now with no problems, and I cut all my used filters open. I use them on Chevy trucks so they do NOT have a Clicker valve. I use another brand on my Nissan truck which does unfortunately use a filter with a bypass -I never trusted the "clicker" valve for that one in the first place. As far as the Ecore is concerned I am letting other folks test that one out first, I'll try that one after it has been real-world-tested a little longer...not too thrilled with corporate testing, even less thrilled with it after this topic started.
Rando

[ March 22, 2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: ZR2RANDO ]