Chrysler changes the oil spec for 2013

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I've never said I would track an M BMW or even my own BMW on a 20wt oil.

I will have to look but its there. IIRC Overkill was also in that thread.
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My track car is my Caterham and yes I run a 20wt oil. The engine is spec'd for a 40wt oil.

So you don't give a rats rear about specs either eh? But you have no problem going right after someone if they do the reverse. Your a hypocrite!
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Where you're particularly mistaken is you're assumption that a 20wt oil "won't hold up running hot and hard

Then why does Toyota, Honda, Nissan and other not spec this oil in Germany? You didn't answer the question the first time.
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h, and regarding turbo engines, IIRC Ford does spec' their 5W-20 for one of it's Eco-Boost engined models

Which one? Inquiring minds want to know. I looked but didn't find any. I suppose they may not have it listed yet.
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Additionally Ford of Europe recently up-graded it's oil recommendations for the cars it sells there and their 5W-20 spec' oil is specified for many of them.

Not all of them and we don't know if they included Germany in that. I will find that out personally in week and a half.
GB already uses 20 in a lot of their engines because they have the same grocery getter conditions as the US.
Also because Ford is worldwide do they not get to use those savings in the Corporate Average Fuel Economy stats and get credit for them in the US?
Name me one German, French or Italian Company who specs 20w, just 1 no need to strain yourself.
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When a OEM specifies a 20wt oil they've got a handle on maximum oil temp's under extreme conditions

If they sell the identical engine in Germany as they do here and will not spec 20w something isn't right!

You said you believe its due to oil consumption. Why does 20 go out pipe if its so stable.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
So you don't give a rats rear about specs either eh? But you have no problem going right after someone if they do the reverse. Your a hypocrite!
You said you believe its due to oil consumption. Why does 20 go out pipe if its so stable.

I very much care about "specs" in particular the OEMs oil pressure spec's which in my view trump any oil grade.
I don't go "after someone" for anything, and I certainly don't call them names, that's what you do.
Using a heavier than spec'd oil here in NA because it is spec'd in another country with different driving condtions and not knowing why is very silly IMO but that's your business.
When you recommend running a grade or two heavier oil to some members on BITOG as you often do, regardless on how the vehicle is used and with absolutely nothing to back it up that's irrational fear mongering.

As I mentioned previously a 20wt oil is no more unstable than a heavier oil grade. In case you didn't know a 20wt oil is simply lighter than a 30wt oil which is lighter than a 40wt oil. Constant high rev's associated with high speed driving will increase oil consumption. Heavier oil will be consumed at a lower rate. If you want to demonizing 20wt oil for this feel free.

A while ago a member mentioned that M1 0W-40 is a recommended oil option in Europe for the Corvette. The reason for this WAS to counter the high oil consumption associated with cruising at high rev's on the spec' M1 5W-30.
From a strictly lubrication view point the Corvette does not require an oil any heavier than the light 5W-30 which will handle quite high oil temp's as the many who track them here in NA know.
So yes having reasonable oil consumption rates is the reason I believe heavier oil is often spec'd in Europe.
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Originally Posted By: Trav
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Fords have a "Fail Safe Cooling System" that sets off chimes, CEL, computer message, and temp guage pegs to red zone when engine enters a preset temperature before an overheat develops. Then as the engine temperature continues to rise, the engine goes into limp mode with alternate cylinder air pumping to keep engine below another preset tempersture. And if engine temperature reaches another preset temperature, then computer shuts engine down and will permit restart when temperature goes below a preset. Even at the shut down temperature, there is still a margin of safety to prevent engine damage. There are also redundant control systems

Originally Posted By: trav

You need to research a little more. That system was used by GM on the N* many years ago long before Ford thought about using it.
Oh wait, we all know how well that worked out once they got a little heated.

That was introduced in 1991 which maybe a little before your time.



Don't know what you are going on about. The post was about OEMs building in safety features through engine control management, not about GM or who was first which seems to be one common theme with your posts.
 
You said..
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When a OEM specifies a 20wt oil they've got a handle on maximum oil temp's under extreme conditions. I don't feel the need to second guess them like you do.

Oh okay if i suggest running a 0w40 in a aftermarket turbo VQ35 an engine that is known to abuse oil in stock form you try to give me a new one saying it doesnt spec that oil.
Simply because you don't like heavier oils and its against your thin religion (yes Caterham you have turned this into a religion of sorts).

But you have no problem saying this..
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My track car is my Caterham and yes I run a 20wt oil. The engine is spec'd for a 40wt oil.

When called out about you not following specs also you get your knickers in a twist and say this..
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I very much care about "specs"

Then lament on about your bloody OP and temp gages again.

They sell the Corvevette in Germany and they are spec for 5w30.
German 5w30 with an HTHS in the 3.5 range, the the PX or AFEES gas stations to be more precise sell Mobil 1, Castrol and others but they are Euro sourced for quite a while now. MMO was taken off the shelf for obvious reasons (guys putting a qt in the oil).

Soldiers now receive an info packet about operating their cars in Germany.
In the 80's and 90's American cars littered the dealers with blown engines and they had not run out of oil, they ran the wrong oil.

Which Ford ecoboost or ANY turbo engine sold in the US runs 20w i am waiting for that answer.
Why not????? If it can take the heat and abuse like you say then it should be spec'd right?
Whats the difference between a turbo and a non turbo?
Heat and higher HP/ltr thats all, its not like its getting sheared by a gearbox or something similar.

The answer is simple 20w cant stand that kind of heat or the abuse over a entire OCI that why! You cannot prove otherwise with any real facts just your beliefs and opinions and thats not good enough to risk an engine on, at least not mine.
I can prove my point with facts! No manufacturer in the world spec's 20w in their turbo engines sold in the US!
Even if Ford did spec it for one of their ecoboost (i haven't seen anything saying they do) i would bet the specs show it to be a very low pressure (9 psi or less) unit.

Readers of this post. Amsoil has a good data base for oil specs, look for yourselves how many turbo engines are 20w spec.
 
Trav,
Ford calls for a 30wt in their Ecoboast engines because of the turbos, not the engine itself. Honda turbos call for a HTO-06 oil which is 5-30 but their other engines call for 20wt oils. Just askin.
 
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Exactly tig thats the whole point. Turbo = heat and more HP.
A bad combination for any engine, the oil is getting beat to death with heat and has to protect an engine that is making more power than its non turbo counterpart.

The issue in Germany is compounded with high constant high RPM operation, turbo or non turbo the oil gets hotter than in normal grocery getter use.

I contend that while 20w has its place, high HP, turbo and extended high RPM use are not the areas it does as well as a heavier oil does. Thats all, nothing more or less.
The simple fact that even for use in the US manufacturers spec heavier oils for these conditions seems evidence enough that they don't feel that 20w is durable enough when subjected to these extremes.
 
Trav,
I think your right about 30-40 wt oils in extreme conditions like you presented. However in my Duratechs, 20wt seems to fit the bill for the type of driving these engines are ask to do.
 
I have no doubt whatsoever that 20w oil with work fine in any engine that it is spec'd for running in the US or NA.

I am not a thick oil zealot it is not for everything but it certainly has its place.
I also contend that engines that are identical can have different specs depending on the conditions they have to operate under and both can be considered correct.
The same engine in the US may call for a 20w but in Germany it may call for a 30w or even 40w oil.

If you brought your German spec Toyota to the US could you run 20w? Absolutely.
Could the be said in reverse running a 30w? Absolutely.
Would there be any increase in wear in either? No

Would running the 20w in Germany promote more wear? Probably because its not in spec for those conditions.
The same would be true in the reverse only if it was below the operating temperature of the oil.

If this is true as was posted in this thread..
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Will running a heavier weight oil in an engine designed for a 20wt lead to lower wear? No. Could it increase wear? Yes.

Does that mean the the engineers have decided to just let the engines running in Germany wear out prematurely?
I don't believe that and i really don't think anyone else does either considering they get just as long life out of the engines.
Statement like this are IMO are pure fear mongering in the name of promoting a thin oil agenda.
 
Guys....I know I have stated this before in other posts, but I will do it again here. Ford Crown Victoria P71 police cars are driven (I know 'cause I did it for 10 years) as hard as cars get driven, 12-14 hours of running time per shift, WOT many times per shift, occasional pursuits up to 30 minutes of WOT, hit red line many times a day- and since 2001 they have been doing it on 5w-20 oil. This is a 239+hp V8, 4000+ pound car. They hold up very well (I had one with 189 or 198K miles on it- I forget which and it ran like a champ). 5w-20 will do the job if the car is designed right, and it will do it under some very severe conditions and harsh climates (Louisiana).
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
I have to question this because no other ford using this engine uses 20w and they state GF4 oil not GF5.


I caught that also: the GF-4 specification instead of GF-5.
 
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12-14 hours of running time per shift, WOT many times per shift, occasional pursuits up to 30 minutes of WOT, hit red line many times a day

Not as harsh as it sounds, think about it.
Fewer cold starts, WOT many times in an 8 hr period and 30 min WOT is not the same a WOT (or darn close to it) for a few hundred kilometres of sometimes daily use.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
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12-14 hours of running time per shift, WOT many times per shift, occasional pursuits up to 30 minutes of WOT, hit red line many times a day

Not as harsh as it sounds, think about it.
Fewer cold starts, WOT many times in an 8 hr period and 30 min WOT is not the same a WOT (or darn close to it) for a few hundred kilometres of sometimes daily use.



I have thought about it. I am pretty sure it is some very severe service since auto manufacturers design essentially a very different vehicle to work that service,so others think about it too. Ford thought about it so much that they made numerous changes to the Crown Vic, so many they didn't even call it a crown vic, they called it "Police Interceptor". Differences on a P71 Vic from a standard vic include- duals with no resonators, heavy duty brakes, sway bars, springs and shocks, 1" taller ride height, deeper gears, aluminum drive shaft, 1" smaller torque converter, higher redline, transmission, power steering, and engine oil coolers, reinforced FRAME, heavy duty wheels, speed rated tires, big alternator, different down shift points, Marauder airbox and zip tube with 80mm MAF, etc...etc....

Interestingly on the Caprice police cars, they also made numerous changes. I haven't driven one in years, but as I recall the suspension upgrades were similar. In addition, they specced different oil on the police car LT1- (10w-30-I am pretty sure this is due to the fact that they had a oil to air cooler as opposed to the ford oil to coolant cooler, which was much more effective), had additional coolers (engine oil and transmission for sure), bilstein or decarbon shocks (I forget which) and numerous other upgrades.

It is very severe service, and I have seen agencies try to do police work with civilian Crown Vics they got for a deal somewhere, and if you don't mind trashing a vehicle in 60 thousand miles its a great way to do business (and not being able to stop from high speeds worth a hoot). Much like you I have real world experience to back these statements up. If you don't think police work is severe service, you're not paying attention. Heck, read your owners manual- they generally have a severe service section, and they ALWAYS mention police work.....
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav

Simply because you don't like heavier oils and its against your thin religion (yes Caterham you have turned this into a religion of sorts).

On the contrary, it is yourself that has adopted an anti-20wt "religion". You're on record stating that you wouldn't use a 20wt oil in anything other than perhaps "door hinges".

I have no biase in favour of any oil grade all other than to follow the fundamental lubrication axiom 'as thin as possible, as thick as necessary.' In the past month alone I have recommended 20wt, 30wt ,40wt, 50wt and 60wt oils.

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I very much care about "specs"
Then lament on about your bloody OP and temp gages again.
That's the route of your lack of understanding of motor oil.
You have yet to understand the concept of operational viscosity.


Originally Posted By: Trav

The answer is simple 20w cant stand that kind of heat or the abuse over a entire OCI that why! You cannot prove otherwise with any real facts

I pointed out to you that the FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20 is just one 20wt oil that can easily handle "heat and abuse" even under actual racing conditions such as in the Porsche Cup Racing Series (400+ hp GT-3 engines) in which it was used, and you have conveniently chosen to ignore that.
But that is beside the point. With one possible exception turbo engines can generate high oil temp's so it is not surprising that a light 30wt oil is specified.

As I've mentioned before, when a 20wt oil is specified high oil temp's are not likely even under extreme operating conditions.
We don't unfortunately have the autobahn in NA but we do for example have the largely isolated South-West where high speeds, lots of extended periods of WOT can be maintained under extreme ambient temp's never seen in Germany.
I'm confident even under such conditions cars like the Prius will not see high oil temp's and as has been mentioned in this thread by modularv8 there are undoubtedly controls in place to prevent it from happening.
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This is an interesting discussion. Learning a lot.

Trav leaves one with the impression that everyone in Germany runs endlessly down the Autobahn with their foot to the floor. How many of the cars there are driven that way?

My memories from Germany are dim and from another era, but I remember a lot of rural roads, small towns and cities... generally much more congested than what I see here with speed limits as low or lower than here. Sure, you can go flat out on some parts of the 'bahn but not everywhere... and how far can you go? I'll bet you can go farther at a stretch in just portions of Texas or Nevada than you can in all of Germany and, even if you can't go flat out (legally anyway), the high ambient temps probably make up for that. That doesn't take into account the high performance cars over there, of course. Anyway, couldn't the average hausfrau schleppmobile that runs to the market over there get by on a 5W20 as a similar car can here. Even accounting for long drain intervals and an occasional high speed run (relative to the car) on the 'bahn?
 
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On the contrary, it is yourself that has adopted an anti-20wt "religion". You're on record stating that you wouldn't use a 20wt oil in anything other than perhaps "door hinges".


Wrong. You have no sense of humour. I am also on "record" as using 20w in my Expedition.
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I have no biase in favour of any oil grade all

crackmeup2.gif
Good lord if Toyota stopped selling 0w20 you would be in a real pickle. Stretch it if you need but please don't lie about the obvious.

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That's the route of your lack of understanding of motor oil.
You have yet to understand the concept of operational viscosity.


Typical of you. If someone disagrees with you they don't understand.
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Porsche Cup Racing Series (400+ hp GT-3 engines


I did ignore that. You forgot to mention how many oil coolers and the capacity of that car. You also forgot to mention what the expected life span of that engine is before tear down.
Go ahead and tell us!

In this thread you said you suggested 0w40 in a Corvette but in another thread you said..
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Corvettes can handle oil temp's of 265F on the spec' M1 5W-30 without issue.
 
Of course everyone doesn't drive foot to the floor all the time. But enough people do whenever they can.
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how far can you go?

I use to drive a 600km stretch one way every weekend.
I left about 10 PM when the traffic was light and i was able to stay in it almost the whole way except for the outskirts of 2 cities.

20w may or may not come to Germany, if it proves itself long term then sure it may but not now.
The 20w is viewed with distain by most Germans and German manufacturers.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
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In this thread you said you suggested 0w40 in a Corvette but in another thread you said..
Corvettes can handle oil temp's of 265F on the spec' M1 5W-30 without issue.

I don't lie or distort the truth, that's what you do repeatedly.
I didn't suggest 0W-40 for the Corvette and actually made the point that it wasn't required from a purely lubrication perspective. But of course you know that.
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What is it about Turbos that calls for a "thicker" oil? Heat & higher rpms. I use 20 grade oil and I'm a fan of it but.... Getting back to my hypothetical GI stationed in Germany with the US built Ford or Chrysler [non-turbo] he had shipped there. He's got a heavy foot and likes to run the Autobahn WOT as long as he can. Still think a 20 grade is the best?

My Jeep only specs one grade of oil 5W20, and gives me no choices. I know I'd be running 5W30 no matter what they say. Those who don't might be in the market for a new engine.

I'm beginning to think its more CAFE than what's best. If not why don't I have an option [while under warranty] to use 5W30 for severe use?
 
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