Chrysler changes the oil spec for 2013

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Oils that are too thick or out of spec for an engine design/OEM recommendation can and do increase the wear rate, particularly the piston ring pack. From all the SAE papers on this subject, an HTHS of 2.6 cP to 2.8 cP is the ideal range for maximum fuel economy and engine durability. Nothing is ever compromised and there are added benefits to low viscosity lubricants.


Can you produce any literature to show increased wear over HTHS 2.8 please? I would like to learn something new (for a change).

Also, can you explain why Toyota allows up to 20W50 in Europe and Australia in their cars?

Thanks!


Below are a few references that show the ideal range that compromises engine wear, fuel economy, and efficiency. HTHS 2.6-2.8 is the ideal range. Higher HTHS than 2.8 does not allow for significantly less wear while the parasitic frictional losses are significantly higher. Lower HTHS oils with less additives will be developed with out compromising engine wear because of friction reducing coating are and will be used in manufacturing.

http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/tribology.pdf
http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/Nanotechnology_in_gear_oils.pdf

The stigma of lower viscosity oils not being able to protect from wear is because of little to no VI's were used in 20 oil grade testing about 20 years ago. Once higher grade base oils became more common along with the implementation of VI's in PCMO this negated the need for higher HTHS to prevent wear. Also oil performance was best expressed as the frequency of excessive wear, rather than by quantitative wear measurement.
Further studies by Ford R&D in particular reasoned the minimum HTHS of 2.6 was enough before engine wear was accelerated.

This was discussed before with references as you requested.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1061666&page=1

With all the information discussed here and all the technical papers, studies, and ect. I have determined that unless there is a factor that would cause you to use your engine that would not let the oil cool off such as hours upon hours of red line, or a mechanical/design issue that would cause the oil to constantly have a HTHS less than 2.6 than I would use a higher than 20 grade to compensate. If the manufacture recommends 20 grade for you application there was more than enough testing done to justify the recommendation. If a 20 grade was not recommended there is a reason for not making that recommendation. This is the reason why I do not particularly care for what is recommended for use in other parts of the world. I do not know how a car is driven in a another part of the world and I do not know the chemical make up of a PCMO sold and readily available elsewhere some VOA's from other members in other countries outside of North America has shown that a PCMO can have a different make up and a different than predicted testing outcome.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2446740#Post2446740
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677642#Post2677642
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677653#Post2677653

Also different engineers with different backgrounds and objectives will make recommendation on their parameters. I do not know if BMW's philosophy is to make a recommendation that is to minimize engine wear at all cost even if it is to compromise engine efficiency even if this means recommending a higher grade of oil that does not offer significantly higher wear protection but allows for a higher safety margin. Some people just want redundancy with redundancy there is not wrong with that.


While those studies are interesting what happens to the guy running at high speeds on the Autobahn with a 20 grade oil only to find he did permanent damage to the engine because the oil couldn't handle it?

 

[friendly_jacek]

No cherry picking, just reading what you linked. Should I read something else instead?

To put things in perspective, I don't believe there is a significant difference between shear stable 5W20 and shear liable 5W30 oils.

But, I still would like to see that evidence that HTHS>2.8 produces more wear.

 

[OldCowboy]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
No cherry picking, just reading what you linked. Should I read something else instead?

To put things in perspective, I don't believe there is a significant difference between shear stable 5W20 and shear liable 5W30 oils.

But, I still would like to see that evidence that HTHS>2.8 produces more wear.


Check out figure 2a and 2b here: http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...icants-2010.pdf

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: Trav
I heard from Prof Dr (insert name, he is my first cousin) of BMW M engineering with my own ears over dinner that their studies done just a couple of years go showed 20w oil did not provide enough protection in their engines.
I wont throw his name out on an internet forum, he could answer himself if he sees fit.


Just got out of my Monday morning meeting and in speaking with Drs. (insert names, they are institue engineers) of our automotive research division, they both claim that OEMs recommend an oil grade based on engine operating design parameters and hardware. Both said, alot of engineering/research goes into drivetrain and lubricant specification to insure optimal operating conditions and durability. Deviating from the HTHS within the range of a recommeded grade puts the engine outside its design parameters for its expected normal operating temperature (165F - 212F/195F = ideal). So putting a 20wt into an engine like BMW designed for a much higher grade (HTHS specification) isn't going to work very well.

When any OEM specifies a recommended minimum oil viscosity a large safety margin is factored in, to deal with unexpectedly high oil temp', oil shear and fuel dilution.
The spec' BMW 5W-30 that's used in all none M series bimmers here in NA may have a virgin HTHSV of 3.5cP but it's shears virtually immediately by at least 10%. BMW also spec's their LL-01-FE 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) oil as an option for a number of their engines including the N54 twin turbo that will routinely see oil temp's as high as 265F in street use as a number of members have reported.
Remember, BMW like all European OEMs used to specify a 5W-20 oil based on ambient temp's back in the '80s before 0W/5W-30/40 synthetic oils became the only oils specified.

BMW is no different than any other OEM that spec's a 30wt oil for their fleet of vehicles. Yes you can run a 20wt oil in light duty applications but you may eliminate a large part of your safety margin in so doing. The only way to know for sure how much of that safety margin remains when the oil is up to temperature is with an oil pressure gauge.
A member PM'd me last winter for my opinion on the Toyota 0W-20 he was running in his M3 and loved it. He was still able to maintain the minimum spec' OP but only just on the fresh oil.
I suggested adding a qt or two of M1 0W-40 to gain some viscosity reserve which wouldn't dramatically increasing the cold start-up performance.

I've been running a 0W/5W-20 for the past 8 winters in my M52 engined BMW very successfully. Oil temp's rarely get above 180F and often don't hit 165F so my oil pressure is always well above spec'. I keep the oil level on minimum which aids in warm-up and allows room to add a litre or more of heavier 40 or 50wt oil in the summer when the oil temp's consistently start hitting 190F.
This routine allows me to maintain an annual OCI.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Oils that are too thick or out of spec for an engine design/OEM recommendation can and do increase the wear rate, particularly the piston ring pack. From all the SAE papers on this subject, an HTHS of 2.6 cP to 2.8 cP is the ideal range for maximum fuel economy and engine durability. Nothing is ever compromised and there are added benefits to low viscosity lubricants.


Can you produce any literature to show increased wear over HTHS 2.8 please? I would like to learn something new (for a change).

Also, can you explain why Toyota allows up to 20W50 in Europe and Australia in their cars?

Thanks!


Below are a few references that show the ideal range that compromises engine wear, fuel economy, and efficiency. HTHS 2.6-2.8 is the ideal range. Higher HTHS than 2.8 does not allow for significantly less wear while the parasitic frictional losses are significantly higher. Lower HTHS oils with less additives will be developed with out compromising engine wear because of friction reducing coating are and will be used in manufacturing.

http://www.sveacon.se/lectures/tribology.pdf
http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF/Nanotechnology_in_gear_oils.pdf

The stigma of lower viscosity oils not being able to protect from wear is because of little to no VI's were used in 20 oil grade testing about 20 years ago. Once higher grade base oils became more common along with the implementation of VI's in PCMO this negated the need for higher HTHS to prevent wear. Also oil performance was best expressed as the frequency of excessive wear, rather than by quantitative wear measurement.
Further studies by Ford R&D in particular reasoned the minimum HTHS of 2.6 was enough before engine wear was accelerated.

This was discussed before with references as you requested.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1061666&page=1

With all the information discussed here and all the technical papers, studies, and ect. I have determined that unless there is a factor that would cause you to use your engine that would not let the oil cool off such as hours upon hours of red line, or a mechanical/design issue that would cause the oil to constantly have a HTHS less than 2.6 than I would use a higher than 20 grade to compensate. If the manufacture recommends 20 grade for you application there was more than enough testing done to justify the recommendation. If a 20 grade was not recommended there is a reason for not making that recommendation. This is the reason why I do not particularly care for what is recommended for use in other parts of the world. I do not know how a car is driven in a another part of the world and I do not know the chemical make up of a PCMO sold and readily available elsewhere some VOA's from other members in other countries outside of North America has shown that a PCMO can have a different make up and a different than predicted testing outcome.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2446740#Post2446740
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677642#Post2677642
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677653#Post2677653

Also different engineers with different backgrounds and objectives will make recommendation on their parameters. I do not know if BMW's philosophy is to make a recommendation that is to minimize engine wear at all cost even if it is to compromise engine efficiency even if this means recommending a higher grade of oil that does not offer significantly higher wear protection but allows for a higher safety margin. Some people just want redundancy with redundancy there is not wrong with that.


While those studies are interesting what happens to the guy running at high speeds on the Autobahn with a 20 grade oil only to find he did permanent damage to the engine because the oil couldn't handle it?


If the manufacture recommends 20 grade for you application there was more than enough testing done to justify the recommendation. If a 20 grade was not recommended there is a reason for not making that recommendation. This is the reason why I do not particularly care for what is recommended for use in other parts of the world. I do not know how a car is driven in a another part of the world

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

While those studies are interesting what happens to the guy running at high speeds on the Autobahn with a 20 grade oil only to find he did permanent damage to the engine because the oil couldn't handle it?


If the hypothetical guy on the autobahn was running 20-weight oil as specified by the vehicle's manufacturer, and the car was still in warranty, I suppose he would get a new engine.

 

[modularv8]

I agree, but I was under the impression he was referring to a late 80s BMW engine which is around the time researchers were testing low viscosity lubes.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dave1251

If the manufacture recommends 20 grade for you application there was more than enough testing done to justify the recommendation. If a 20 grade was not recommended there is a reason for not making that recommendation. This is the reason why I do not particularly care for what is recommended for use in other parts of the world. I do not know how a car is driven in a another part of the world



I agree, but how about the America GI who gets stationed in Germany. He decides to have his American Ford or Chrysler shipped over. He has his American owners manual calling for 5W20, and a fill cap to back it up, he doesn't visit BITOG and knows no better. He decides to take an 8 hour run on the Autobahn with 5W20 in the sump, and keep up with traffic. Do you think he'd be better off with the non-spec'd 5W30?

 

[dave1251]

Would the GI that is from Austin TX, that transferred to Elmendorf AK be better served to switch to a 20 grade?

 

[modularv8]

One thing I've noticed about automotive engineers, is that they think about every possible scenario then build a safety margin. As for Ford, they know the operating range for each engine based on its design, then build safety margins around it. Fords have a "Fail Safe Cooling System" that sets off chimes, CEL, computer message, and temp guage pegs to red zone when engine enters a preset temperature before an overheat develops. Then as the engine temperature continues to rise, the engine goes into limp mode with alternate cylinder air pumping to keep engine below another preset tempersture. And if engine temperature reaches another preset temperature, then computer shuts engine down and will permit restart when temperature goes below a preset. Even at the shut down temperature, there is still a margin of safety to prevent engine damage. There are also redundant control systems. They really have done all the thinking for the customer, we just need to drive.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Would the GI that is from Austin TX, that transferred to Elmendorf AK be better served to switch to a 20 grade?


I don't understand the question, and typically don't answer a question with a question, but here goes. He's still in the USA so use what is recommended which was 5W20, maybe he should consider a 0W20. How about that American in Germany with the US car calling for a 20 grade oil? He wouldn't be better off with a 30 grade oil?

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Would the GI that is from Austin TX, that transferred to Elmendorf AK be better served to switch to a 20 grade?


I don't understand the question, and typically don't answer a question with a question, but here goes. He's still in the USA so use what is recommended which was 5W20, maybe he should consider a 0W20. How about that American in Germany with the US car calling for a 20 grade oil? He wouldn't be better off with a 30 grade oil?


I can not answer that question. Will you pay for a trip for me to Germany along with shipping a Ford Focus over there? I will see if I can run it at red line for hours to find out. But I have ran a Focus at 102MPH and the RPM's are around 4-4.5 grand so constant redline is nearly impossible to obtain. If I was shooting in the dark like I would believe a 30 grade would work "better".

 

[kmrcstintn]

Quote:
Interesting thoughts Indy. My questions are, why the wait to 2013, and why didn't they back spec 2011 and 2012 then?


we had a similar thread recently dealing with the 3.7L v-6 in the Jeep Liberty's and when I inquired to several local dealers I was told by one of them that 'recall' would be created to replace the oil fill caps to reflect the change in viscosity to eliminate confusion amongst vehicle owners; my feedback is it would create a mess inside the corporation and amidst the dealer network...

 

[demarpaint]

No Dave I won't pay,

I'd go and do the test myself, but I really don't have to. We have a resident member who was born there and now resides in the USA. He returns to Germany to visit family at least once a year that has seen first hand what happens to cars running 20 grade oil under those conditions. I think the 30 grade shearing and all would hold up a heck of a lot better under those conditions than a 20 grade would. BTW you're not shooting in the dark, you know the 30 grade would do better.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
No cherry picking, just reading what you linked. Should I read something else instead?

To put things in perspective, I don't believe there is a significant difference between shear stable 5W20 and shear liable 5W30 oils.

But, I still would like to see that evidence that HTHS>2.8 produces more wear.


Check out figure 2a and 2b here: http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...icants-2010.pdf


Yes, I saw that. I'm not convinced it's more wear, it's rather an artifact of the attempt to fit the curve. Note that the points were derived from different experiments. Furthermore, the figures 3a and 3b in the very same document don't have that artifact.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
One thing I've noticed about automotive engineers, is that they think about every possible scenario then build a safety margin. As for Ford, they know the operating range for each engine based on its design, then build safety margins around it. Fords have a "Fail Safe Cooling System" that sets off chimes, CEL, computer message, and temp guage pegs to red zone when engine enters a preset temperature before an overheat develops. Then as the engine temperature continues to rise, the engine goes into limp mode with alternate cylinder air pumping to keep engine below another preset tempersture. And if engine temperature reaches another preset temperature, then computer shuts engine down and will permit restart when temperature goes below a preset. Even at the shut down temperature, there is still a margin of safety to prevent engine damage. There are also redundant control systems. They really have done all the thinking for the customer, we just need to drive.


If so, why Toyota and Subaru put a warning in their manuals to use thicker oils [compared to those sanctioned by CAFE] in high temp high speed applications?

 

[friendly_jacek]

More data points to study:

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


If so, why Toyota and Subaru put a warning in their manuals to use thicker oils [compared to those sanctioned by CAFE] in high temp high speed applications?


Because in a situation like the one I mentioned above about the GI in Germany they'd be finding their cars littering the Autobahn. At least they make the recommendation use a "thicker " oil to cover their Arse. Many OM's state 5W20 and 5W20 alone with no other choices.

 

[CATERHAM]

friendly_jacek, nice charts.
It's interesting to note that in whatever engine the tests were made that increased wear didn't raise it's head with a 2.6cP oil until 130C oil temp's were reached. That's an oil temp' virtually impossible to reach in any vehicle for which a 20wt oil is spec'd including driving flat out on the autobahn.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
That's an oil temp' virtually impossible to reach in any vehicle for which a 20wt oil is spec'd including driving flat out on the autobahn.

Here you go again. I am asking you to prove that statement!
Lets see some real documentation. Verifiable facts, not what you think, believe or think you know.

Toyota, Honda and Subaru for example uses the exact same engine sold in the US in Germany the oil spec is 5w30-0w40.
0w20 or 5w20 is not approved by Toyota/Honda/Subaru Japan for use in Germany unless its a hybrid (no Subaru hybrid).

If what you say is true..
Quote:
including driving flat out on the autobahn

Then why is it not approved?
Again provide facts not fiction.

Jacks charts sure look like maybe shed a little light of truth on the things.