Chinese Michelin Pilot Sport 5

[michael007]

Manufacturing location matters.

Not saying you can't make a quality product in China, but culturally its different. If there choice is to bypass QC to ship product, and not ship product, they will always ship product.

If the OEM owns the QC, then fine. However these days its sampling at best. So I buy nothing from China if I can avoid it.

Of course US production could do the same thing. Its just culturally less acceptable.

Mexico isn't that much different. The worst tires I have ever owned are ones I got a couple years ago from General (Continental) made in Mexico. 3 of 4 had to go back - out of round, and not by a little bit. How does an OEM ship a out of round tire you might ask? No QC.

Fair opinion but I think it's stereotyping rather than culture.

There was a similar debate in the made in China Tesla thread. I thought @JeffKeryk's comment hit it on the nail

I have no doubt Michelin is bringing their A game when it comes to Chinese QA for two reasons:
-The Chinese hate it when foreign brands give inferior products to their domestic market. This complaint is commonly found on Chinese forums (ex: some thought China was being singled out by Chevron when the PEA % dropped in Techron). To penetrate a competitive market with 1.4 billion people, skipping on QC is a death wish. It seems like Tesla is starting to learn this lesson as the rich Chinese seem to be going back to traditional brands like Mercedes.
-Michelin knows Chinese manufacturing will have a stigma with some but they chose to sell this tire in other markets like Europe and North America so if they want to ramp up manufacturing in the East, they better not ruin their reputation early in the game. They went so far as to make a statement about how tires from China will be the same as from elsewhere... c'mon now.

Do not forget that some tires are market specific and if one needs a replacement the wait may be a few months.

Speed rating is the same, load rating is the same. The pilot sport 5 is sold both in the United States and Canada. Since the border is near, finding a replacement shouldn't be an issue.

I wasn't very impressed with my experience running the Pilot Sport 4, hopefully the Pilot Sport 5 is better.

Not related to performance but found this tidbit to be interesting when reading a review from Australia
Link to the review: https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/tyre-review-michelin-pilot-sport-5-test

"As unsexy a starting point for new hi-po tyres as it might seem, the new PS5 is manufactured from 40 per cent sustainable materials and, in use, produces 20 per cent fewer particulate emissions than the outgoing PS4. In fact, Michelin says 80 per cent of a tyre’s environmental impact is on road."

 

[krzyss]

On Miata forum people found that the same tire size made in two different factories, in two different countries, were not the same.
Miata rear LSD was locking up because of either different size (exact size, not nominal) or different traction (compound probably).

So Chinese made tire may be as good as any but it may not be identical to what comes to the USA.
Or your size may not be available even if the model is.

You may find it out.

Krzyś

 

[Pew]

Yeah it’s S5, not 5S, my bad. You’re incorrect about the bottom part there I’m pretty sure. PSS was replaced by PS4S. There was no PS3S, just a regular PS3. The replacement for PS4S is PSS5 it’s just starting life as OEM only.

It’s very simple if you look at what Porsche and BMW use on each generation of 911s and M3.

E46 M3 - Pilot Sport
E92 M3 - Pilot Sport 2
F80 M3 - Pilot Super Sport
G80 M3 - Pilot Sport 4S
future - Pilot Sport S5


The PS3 and PS5 are the oddballs in the lower performance category.

Their naming convention is ridiculous. PS2, PS3, PSS, PS3 A/S+, PS4, PS4 A/S, PS4S, PS5, PS S5.

 

[michael007]

On Miata forum people found that the same tire size made in two different factories, in two different countries, were not the same.
Miata rear LSD was locking up because of either different size (exact size, not nominal) or different traction (compound probably).

So Chinese made tire may be as good as any but it may not be identical to what comes to the USA.
Or your size may not be available even if the model is.

You may find it out.

Krzyś

It seems like there are only two factories which produce the pilot sport 5 (China, Thailand) and each factory produces different sizes.

If I ordered my size from a North American supplier, it would also be made in China.

Not sure if it's relevant but the CAI numbers are the same both for the version sold in North America and the Chinese label.

Info for my size from Michelin's Mexico's website:

And then info for my size from Michelin USA:

 

[SC Maintenance]

Fair opinion but I think it's stereotyping rather than culture.

There was a similar debate in the made in China Tesla thread. I thought @JeffKeryk's comment hit it on the nail

View attachment 154167

I have no doubt Michelin is bringing their A game when it comes to Chinese QA for two reasons:
-The Chinese hate it when foreign brands give inferior products to their domestic market. This complaint is commonly found on Chinese forums (ex: some thought China was being singled out by Chevron when the PEA % dropped in Techron). To penetrate a competitive market with 1.4 billion people, skipping on QC is a death wish. It seems like Tesla is starting to learn this lesson as the rich Chinese seem to be going back to traditional brands like Mercedes.
-Michelin knows Chinese manufacturing will have a stigma with some but they chose to sell this tire in other markets like Europe and North America so if they want to ramp up manufacturing in the East, they better not ruin their reputation early in the game. They went so far as to make a statement about how tires from China will be the same as from elsewhere... c'mon now.



Speed rating is the same, load rating is the same. The pilot sport 5 is sold both in the United States and Canada. Since the border is near, finding a replacement shouldn't be an issue.



Not related to performance but found this tidbit to be interesting when reading a review from Australia
Link to the review: https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/tyre-review-michelin-pilot-sport-5-test

"As unsexy a starting point for new hi-po tyres as it might seem, the new PS5 is manufactured from 40 per cent sustainable materials and, in use, produces 20 per cent fewer particulate emissions than the outgoing PS4. In fact, Michelin says 80 per cent of a tyre’s environmental impact is on road."

Not trying to be adversarial, but your comments are purely western ideology. I can tell you have never tried to have a product manufactured outside of western norms.

In China, if you tell your co-worker they are doing their job wrong, its disrespectful. Its shameful to both you for saying something, and them for doing something poorly. Your not going to shame yourself and your friend to make a better tire.

If the supervisor in China fails to meet their target production is shameful to them, and disrespectful to their supervisor, even if it had nothing to do with them. So their going to make that target number no matter what.

So sure, if you have a western managers supervising every process, then they can tell employees there doing something wrong, and they can halt production to fix something if there is a problem. Or if you have 100% quality control and every product is tested fully - for then maybe as well. If your process is 100% fool proof (no such thing BTW), then in theory the Chinese tire is the same as the US tire. But they don't have western management, and they don't have 100% test - it would be far too expensive. The instant something deviates from the norm, the difference in end result is stark.

Obviously your entitled to believe what you want.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Not trying to be adversarial, but your comments are purely western ideology. I can tell you have never tried to have a product manufactured outside of western norms.

In China, if you tell your co-worker they are doing their job wrong, its disrespectful. Its shameful to both you for saying something, and them for doing something poorly. Your not going to shame yourself and your friend to make a better tire.

If the supervisor in China fails to meet their target production is shameful to them, and disrespectful to their supervisor, even if it had nothing to do with them. So their going to make that target number no matter what.

So sure, if you have a western managers supervising every process, then they can tell employees there doing something wrong, and they can halt production to fix something if there is a problem. Or if you have 100% quality control and every product is tested fully - for then maybe as well. If your process is 100% fool proof (no such thing BTW), then in theory the Chinese tire is the same as the US tire. But they don't have western management, and they don't have 100% test - it would be far too expensive. The instant something deviates from the norm, the difference in end result is stark.

Obviously your entitled to believe what you want.

I think we are talking about two different things.
Regardless, Michelin is responsible for quality. On the manufacturing floor, management is responsible for planning, organizing, directing and controlling. Controlling, including monitoring, is the process to ensure what is supposed to be done is being done.

If quality falls below standard that they set, it is due to management decisions and it is their responsibility to correct issues.

 

[CKN]

Three Points-
Michelin sends tires all over the world from that China Plant.
Those who have toured that plant say it's hard to know what country you are in-the plant is just like many others Michelin has.
Our Canadian friends will go to great lengths to skirt their country's (higher) prices that help pay for some of the things they enjoy.

 

[CapriRacer]

Some thoughts:

Michelin is notorious for secrecy in their plants.

China is notorious for stealing secrets by helping companies open plants in China.

So when I hear that someone has toured a Michelin plant in China, I think that might be because there are no secrets to see there. Either the products they make there are pretty conventional, or the real secrets are the ingredients they ship in.

Manufacturing the same product in different plants ALWAYS results in different products. While every attempt is made to minimize the differences, there is always something that isn't the same. Usually it's in rubber processing.

Rubber processing takes some heavy duty equipment, and it isn't cheap. So they tend not to change the basic equipment - only the peripheries. Plus some places restrict where the raw materials can come from.

 

[jeepman3071]

I think a lot of it has to do with corporate profits. Funny how Michelin opens a plant in China to cut manufacturing costs, yet I'm sure their prices are just as sky high as before. I have a set of Pilot AS4's on the BMW, and while they are the most expensive tires I've put on this car, they are also the most disappointing. Took three tries at three different shops to get them balanced, and all the shops commented on how they have had issues balancing them. The ride is a bit stiffer, which doesn't really bother me, but even from new they were noticeably louder than my previously worn out tires. I don't think the tires themselves are bad (grip and wear seem pretty good) but I don't think Michelin is worth the hype like it once was.

My friend who also owns an E90 BMW (2006 325i) has the General AS-05, and his car grips just as hard, rides better/quieter and for a fraction of the price.

 

[michael007]

Our Canadian friends will go to great lengths to skirt their country's (higher) prices that help pay for some of the things they enjoy.

I see what you're saying but I don't think that's the reality.

If I were to buy these today from Costco Canada:
$1879 for the tires
$18 tire recycling fee
$246.61 sales tax
--------------------------
$2143.61CAD or $1593USD

Let's start with the $18 tire recycling fee.

Those in charge haven't been complying and might face fines of only 200k.......... Imagine how much $ they make charging $18/set.

Tire producers are in trouble with the Ontario agency that regulates recycling in the province, and could soon face fines of $200,000 or more.

All five of the organizations that collect and recycle used tires in Ontario are failing to comply with provincial legislation, according to the agency, called the Resource Productivity & Recovery Authority (RPRA).

The agency has slapped compliance orders on the five organizations, which work for and are funded by tire manufacturers and auto makers. The orders allege that throughout the province, the industry is not providing enough sites that collect used tires.

The orders are significant because they include threats of financial penalties that could hit any or all the companies that bring tires into Ontario. That includes the big-name tire manufacturers, such as Goodyear, BFGoodrich, Michelin and Pirelli, as well as the major auto makers, such as GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda.

Tires are one of the single biggest sources of waste that the province wants to keep out of landfills. Producers collected 156,000 tonnes of used tires in 2021, the most recent year for which figures are available. That's the equivalent of 14.7 million passenger vehicle tires. Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-tire-producer-responsibility-1.6806936

Costco charging Canadians 30% more is just helping to line Costco's pockets.

I was supposed to pay 13% sales tax via Canada Post for these tires but customs must have been too busy and allowed it through untaxed.

If Canada had a system like the Europen Union does, they'd be able to collect sales tax in advance before it's mailed from China. Instead, we're doing random selection so I wouldn't say I'm skirting trying to pay my share.

If a commercial importer brought it in, there would have been 7% duty applied so that's about $70 on this set that the government missed out on. Customs doesn't seem to bother with duty when it comes to personal imports.

I paid $807USD.

Paying $1593USD which is basically double the price just so the government can make $70 is foolish.

We're being mislead.

 

[97prizm]

I wouldn't touch a Chinese made tire

These days, it feels difficult to figure out if inflation is caused by corporate profit and not supply chain issues.

Needed some new tires and wanted to get something fun.

The Nokian zLine A/S were my first performance set and they brought some life to the car.
They were incredibly cheap at the time - $351US for the set.

Checked what Costco Canada had to offer and was quoted $1453US for a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 5's.
Americans can get them for $1035USD on eBay and so the Canadian markup is harsh.

View attachment 154067

In China, a set is $593US and Michelin sells direct to the consumer.

Shipping the tires to Canada via China Post sea mail was $212. Shipping took 70 days.

Total cost with shipping was $807. Compared to Costco's price of $1453, it feels like quite the win (45% off).

They're getting mounted in the morning.

View attachment 154072

View attachment 154073

View attachment 154074

View attachment 154075

with a mile long pole.

 

[97prizm]

ItstsI think a lot of it has to do with corporate profits. Funny how Michelin opens a plant in China to cut manufacturing costs, yet I'm sure their prices are just as sky high as before. I have a set of Pilot AS4's on the BMW, and while they are the most expensive tires I've put on this car, they are also the most disappointing. Took three tries at three different shops to get them balanced, and all the shops commented on how they have had issues balancing them. The ride is a bit stiffer, which doesn't really bother me, but even from new they were noticeably louder than my previously worn out tires. I don't think the tires themselves are bad (grip and wear seem pretty good) but I don't think Michelin is worth the hype like it once was.

My friend who also owns an E90 BMW (2006 325i) has the General AS-05, and his car grips just as hard, rides better/quieter and for a fraction of the price.

It's weird because I think Goodyear just went back to making their trailer tires in the USA as the Chinese made ones had abysmal reliability and fell apart.

 

[CKN]

I see what you're saying but I don't think that's the reality.

If I were to buy these today from Costco Canada:
$1879 for the tires
$18 tire recycling fee
$246.61 sales tax
--------------------------
$2143.61CAD or $1593USD

Let's start with the $18 tire recycling fee.

Those in charge haven't been complying and might face fines of only 200k.......... Imagine how much $ they make charging $18/set.



Costco charging Canadians 30% more is just helping to line Costco's pockets.

I was supposed to pay 13% sales tax via Canada Post for these tires but customs must have been too busy and allowed it through untaxed.

If Canada had a system like the Europen Union does, they'd be able to collect sales tax in advance before it's mailed from China. Instead, we're doing random selection so I wouldn't say I'm skirting trying to pay my share.

View attachment 154322

If a commercial importer brought it in, there would have been 7% duty applied so that's about $70 on this set that the government missed out on. Customs doesn't seem to bother with duty when it comes to personal imports.

I paid $807USD.

Paying $1593USD which is basically double the price just so the government can make $70 is foolish.

We're being mislead.

SO this doesn't get political.
PM me if you want to hear what I paid for healthcare coverage between 55 year of age when I retired until I became eligible for the U.S. medicare system. HINT-it's enough to put new tires (even at Canadian prices) on a fleet of vehicles.

You should really think about the additional costs businesses incur doing business in different provinces. Of course Quebec is the worse with language requirements that are mandated. Even businesses filings, contracts, packaging,etc., are required to be in French. That's an additional costs.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I think we are talking about two different things.
Regardless, Michelin is responsible for quality. On the manufacturing floor, management is responsible for planning, organizing, directing and controlling. Controlling, including monitoring, is the process to ensure what is supposed to be done is being done.

If quality falls below standard that they set, it is due to management decisions and it is their responsibility to correct issues.

I think were talking about the same thing. The Chinese plant is likely the same as any other tire plant - maybe even more modern.

When everything runs smoothly there is likely no problem.

When there is a problem the question becomes what to do about it, and if whoever is in charge follows Michelins values or Chinese custom.

Not to say US factories can't make crap also, because they do as well sometimes.

 

[researcher]

I see what you're saying but I don't think that's the reality.

If I were to buy these today from Costco Canada:
$1879 for the tires
$18 tire recycling fee
$246.61 sales tax
--------------------------
$2143.61CAD or $1593USD

Let's start with the $18 tire recycling fee.

Those in charge haven't been complying and might face fines of only 200k.......... Imagine how much $ they make charging $18/set.



Costco charging Canadians 30% more is just helping to line Costco's pockets.

I was supposed to pay 13% sales tax via Canada Post for these tires but customs must have been too busy and allowed it through untaxed.

If Canada had a system like the Europen Union does, they'd be able to collect sales tax in advance before it's mailed from China. Instead, we're doing random selection so I wouldn't say I'm skirting trying to pay my share.

View attachment 154322

If a commercial importer brought it in, there would have been 7% duty applied so that's about $70 on this set that the government missed out on. Customs doesn't seem to bother with duty when it comes to personal imports.

I paid $807USD.

Paying $1593USD which is basically double the price just so the government can make $70 is foolish.

We're being mislead.

My thoughts are to congratulate you on going the route you did.. Ok it's easy to argue you made a mistake, but maybe you didn't. Best way to know if the tires are good is be the test subject and see what happens over time. I tend to agree with you about that factory in China is most likely shipping all over the world from one place. And I think the "Canadian tax" so to speak is ridiculous compared to the US. But on the other hand look at the pharma medicine in the US, we're paying the most compared to other countries..

You shop where you can get the best price, and you did that.. Let's see how it goes over time best way to find out! I still say good job with the deal you found!

 

[michael007]

You should really think about the additional costs businesses incur doing business in different provinces. Of course Quebec is the worse with language requirements that are mandated. Even businesses filings, contracts, packaging,etc., are required to e in French. That's an additional costs.

As a kid, I was suspended more than once for speaking English. This was a French public school in Ontario.

They know only 11.2% of the province speaks French so it's easy to be assimilated.

Now I'm older and appreciate this second language and the culture that comes with it.

It's sad to read threads saying Quebec is having the same worries my school did as a child.

If less than 50% of the population speak French, apparently it'll eventually disappear. Some commented Quebec was on track for this happening and future generations will be reading about French culture instead of living it.

French culture is part of North America so I'm all for additional costs.

I just don't believe the correct additional costs are being passed on to the consumer - especially after covid.

-------------------------------------------------
louisianisation (French term)
the act or process of assimilation into the dominant language of the country to the detriment of the main historical language of a region, as happened historically in Louisiana

 

[michael007]

I think a lot of it has to do with corporate profits. Funny how Michelin opens a plant in China to cut manufacturing costs, yet I'm sure their prices are just as sky high as before.

Thought the same thing when I saw this post back in March.

Our government is subsidizing the Michelin factory in Nova Scotia but prices are higher than they've ever been.

Meanwhile in China, they're getting great pricing for domestic made tires.

 

[IndyIan]

Yeah, I think a lot of companies are pricing for maximum profits now....
You'll have to share the details of finding those?

I see what you're saying but I don't think that's the reality.

If I were to buy these today from Costco Canada:
$1879 for the tires
$18 tire recycling fee
$246.61 sales tax
--------------------------
$2143.61CAD or $1593USD

Let's start with the $18 tire recycling fee.

Those in charge haven't been complying and might face fines of only 200k.......... Imagine how much $ they make charging $18/set.



Costco charging Canadians 30% more is just helping to line Costco's pockets.

I was supposed to pay 13% sales tax via Canada Post for these tires but customs must have been too busy and allowed it through untaxed.

If Canada had a system like the Europen Union does, they'd be able to collect sales tax in advance before it's mailed from China. Instead, we're doing random selection so I wouldn't say I'm skirting trying to pay my share.

View attachment 154322

If a commercial importer brought it in, there would have been 7% duty applied so that's about $70 on this set that the government missed out on. Customs doesn't seem to bother with duty when it comes to personal imports.

I paid $807USD.

Paying $1593USD which is basically double the price just so the government can make $70 is foolish.

We're being mislead.

My brief and incomplete internet search had Michelin making profiting about $8B last year from ~$30B in sales....
So I think the price in China probably reflects something pretty close to their minimum profitable price, and the current price in Canada is to maximize profit from the michelin maniacs, and will probably drop a bit when sales drop off.

I don't mind paying a bit more for goods in Canada than the US, as we have a bit more taxes and its a smaller spread out market, but when they ask twice as much, I'm all for finding a work around. That's how free market capitalism works. No laws were broken here, just enough price difference to get someone motivated to get tires direct from China. Maybe michelin is paying attention and will drop prices or maybe not, up to them.

 

[michael007]

I have a set of Pilot AS4's on the BMW, and while they are the most expensive tires I've put on this car, they are also the most disappointing.

I've also had bad experiences with Michelin in the past but I look at it like going to a bad restaurant. If I eliminated every restaurant because of a bad experience, I wouldn't have anywhere to eat.

I wasn't very impressed with my experience running the Pilot Sport 4, hopefully the Pilot Sport 5 is better.

I think these Pilot Sport 5 will be perfect for drivers who don't track.

One video mentioned a maximal contact patch which gives it more grip over the previous generation:

All I could find were raving reviews from those who actually own it:

 

[michael007]

Some actual data:

Independent testing -

Translated screenshot from a Japanese video: