I don’t get it. I’m not pleased with Musk’s involvement, but I’m supporting American products.
Chinese EV Thoughts? Curious on more technical info
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A totalitarian government that combines the worst traits of communism and facisism and is bent on world domination? What's not to like about it?
There's just way too much difference in quality. And in many cases, Chinese workers don't necessarily take pride in their work, as for decades there was nothing to be gained by doing more than one had to in order to keep a job. But language can explain a lot of how people think.
There's this phrase in the Chinese language - "chabuduo" (差不多). At least that's how it's often spelled out in the Roman alphabet. I think it might be more accurately TZA-BOO-DWO, although it's hard for English speakers to get it right much like Chinese speakers often have a hard time pronouncing anything with an R sound. I know a few people who grew up speaking Chinese who have a hard time pronouncing "room" where it sounds like "loom". The expression predates the PRC, but it's something that people in the PRC took to heart because of the way they operated as workers.
The meaning is roughly "close enough". The first character cha (差) can translate as a bunch of different words including difference, substandard, poor quality, inferior, error, or discrepancy. The second charcter bu (不) simply means not or don't. The third character duo (多) can mean many, much, (a) lot, or more. But I think in the context, "difference not much" is probably the closest direct translation.
Not every worker in China subscribes to this, but it's still considered a pervasive philosophy. Foxconn or someone working for a multinational company operating in China aren't going to put up with it. But it's well know in government work and possibly at some Chinese manufacturers. I think we've all seen it in the quality of a lot of goods coming out of China.
Here's an article on the concept from a British expat living in China. He actually applauds how something like this philosophy translated into improvised brilliance when close enough was possibly the best outcome given serious limitations. But even that level of pride seems to be missing in much of today's China.
Chabuduo! Close enough …
Your balcony fell off? Chabuduo. Vaccines are overheated? Chabuduo. How China became the land of disastrous corner-cutting
Yet sometimes there’s a brilliance to chabuduo. One of the daily necessities of life under Maoism was improvisation; finding ways to keep irreplaceable luxuries such as tractors or machine tools going, despite missing parts or broken supply chains. On occasion, it was applauded as ‘peasant’ science or Stakhanovite virtue, but more often it meant trouble if noticed by a superior, since Maoism often matched the call for revolution with a pedantic insistence on the correct routine, especially in the factory or the farm. Improvisation could get you accused of ‘sabotage’ – why were you fixing a problem you hadn’t caused? Besides, why would there be a problem in the first place, when things were so well-planned from the top?
But improvisation was a vitally needed talent, and a particular genius developed among some of the senior generation, now in their 60s and older: an ability to go beyond make-do-and-mend to the kind of skills displayed by the A-Team when they’re locked in a barn by villains and they construct an armoured vehicle out of nothing but gardening tools and old tyres. More usually, chabuduo is the domain of a village uncle who grew up with nothing and can whip up a solution to anything out of two bits of wire and some tape. Gate broken? Don’t worry about getting a new lock, we’ll fix it up with some wire, it’ll be chabuduo.
Today, the countryside is full of isolated inventors who build their own juddering planes or pond-going submarines from scratch, or craft full-scale catapults to resist demolition teams. Their mechanical genius has nowhere to go; they’re stuck in a world of farm repairs and lunatic projects. But on a small scale, it’s visible all over even the big cities, from the sidewalk salons assembled out of castaway furniture where layabouts and grandfathers play cards in the afternoon, to the numerous home-built roof shelters made by doting locals for Beijing’s stray cats.
Yet chabuduo is also the casual dismissal of problems. Oh, your door doesn’t fit the frame? Chabuduo, you’ll get used to kicking it open. We sent you a shirt two sizes too big? Chabuduo, what are you complaining about?
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Tesla getting bashed in Europe. BEV sales up 26% and Tesla DOWN 50%, April 2025
Also for the first time BYD overtook Tesla in European sales. It will be an interesting next 12 months not only for Tesla but to see where the EV market goes.
Comparing the USA to Europe is like comparing an apple to an orange. Two very different markets, however with Musk back in the office maybe they can pull something off other than the driverless cabs which will undoubtedly help, assuming that they finally get it done.
Also for the first time BYD overtook Tesla in European sales. It will be an interesting next 12 months not only for Tesla but to see where the EV market goes.
Comparing the USA to Europe is like comparing an apple to an orange. Two very different markets, however with Musk back in the office maybe they can pull something off other than the driverless cabs which will undoubtedly help, assuming that they finally get it done.
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China has been the Asia dominator since I think 3000 years ago, way before communism, and was only losing that title in the last 300 years or so. It is not new to be honest. They were totalitarian since back then and honestly every possible shenanigan a dictatorship can get into has happened already, and there were already case studies in the past on how each of those could end. I'm not here to endorse totalitarian but all government systems have to meet reality at some point and every one of them have to compromise or get overthrown eventually. I think today China's biggest problem is more financial than political. They are not as developed as Japan but is now facing a problem much bigger than Japan in the late 90s.
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That's quite a bit of generalization.
You will find the "close enough" term in every single language and in the end it is how you reward the people that gets the result in the society. In the US I think we also use a lot of "keep it simple stupid", or "stop polishing a turd".
About why Chinese products are "low quality", you have to see who is it target for, how much is it, etc. You can't force people making $500-1000 a month to buy a $1000 iPhone every 2 years, and you can't sell them a $60k pick up truck when all they can afford is a $5000 souped up golf cart. The current problem in China is mostly a systematic problem where the government spend most of the money in infrastructure to catch up post industrial revolution, instead of increasing consumption to switch the country into a service economy. They are not Japan, they can't just suddenly jump past the middle income trap and go from low cost labor world factory into leading the world in quality without improving their own standard of living first. Japan got lucky they have no need to spend much in military and Korean war / Vietnam war stimulated their post WW2 recovery instead of nasty civil wars and political cleansing movement like mainland China got.
Sadly I think China took the wrong turn when they use real estate boom to stimulate post 2008 and now they end up with a big bubble while US try to decouple from their manufacturing.
But I've seen it when I've visited China. They put up with a lot of poor building quality and poor manufacuting quality. Obviously not everything, but enough where . And often government workers don't seem to have a whole lot pride in the quality of work that they do. I remember once getting a cab ride outside of town where we had to go through an internal government checkpoint. All we had were our US passports and maybe our California driver licenses. The employee took one look at them and shrugged. I think he said to our driver something to the effect that he had no idea what to do with a US passport. Didn't ask for a superior or perhaps look up what to do, but just gave up and let us through.
Or when something might look OK at first, but is substandard below the surface. I remember walking on a sidewalk that was covered with granite, which seems to be fairly common in major Chinese cities rather than using concrete. But I could tell by walking on it that it was fairly thin and hollow underneath. I'm sure they got replaced periodically when they busted through. And the irony was that it was the sidewalk in front of a luxury hotel that had a Ferrari dealer on the ground floor.
I've seen this before, so I understand the mix of the absolutely substandard with cost not an object. But it also makes it hard on the consumer to know the difference.
I call it the great facade. I stayed in the "Bawanren Stadium Hotel" or Loreal Inn (Shanghai Xuhui) near shangehi stadium on a business trip. I saw a lot of posters for the soccer team that played there and decided to buy a couple of jerseys for my boys back home. There was a large "Nike" store nearby and I thought I would check it out. Giant neon Nike sign on it, big building, etc. Not only did they not have any Jerseys, but the inventory had no Nike products, just a bunch of brand-less low quality shoes and t shirts. It;s all about the look without the substance.
That's a story unto itself. I do remember the first unauthorized "Apple Stores" they had in China. There was something totally off to anyone who knew what they were, but apparently the employees thought they were working for Apple (perhaps through an authorized partner).
An American blogger has discovered three fake Apple stores operating in Kunming city, China.
Pictures of the stores, their staff and a description of a stroll around them was posted on the BirdAbroad, external blog.
In the article, she writes about conversations with staff, many of whom were convinced that they were employed by the US electronics firm.
Chinese officials in Kunming have ordered two fake Apple shops to close, not because of piracy or copyright concerns, but because the stores did not have an official business permit.
I do understand some of the ways that retailers operate in China. Many advertise with their biggest brand name. Almost how a lot of American restaurants or liquor stores used to have big Coca-Cola signs alongside the name of the busisiness. But in China it might just be a logo of the brand name and nothing else. I'm not even sure there's a big question of trademark issues since so many retailers do it without seeking any kind of permission.
Tesla = it very well maybe game over or maybe they could do it all over again like they did initially.
Enthusiasts like the clean, simple spartan design of the cars. Maybe they gotta take a little bit of a turn more towards traditional.
I just read this article I mean here we have cell phone companies in China producing what seems to be gorgeous cars. How does a cell phone company sell 320,000 electric vehicles in its first 11 months? Never mind the traditional makers like BYD.
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Enthusiasts like the clean, simple spartan design of the cars. Maybe they gotta take a little bit of a turn more towards traditional.
I just read this article I mean here we have cell phone companies in China producing what seems to be gorgeous cars. How does a cell phone company sell 320,000 electric vehicles in its first 11 months? Never mind the traditional makers like BYD.
"China may have already won the EV battle," a team of Morgan Stanley analysts said in a note to investors.
https://insideevs.com/news/760633/tesla-xiaomi-su7-morgan-stanley/…
Elon 100% of the problem. Making the cars like everything else in the segment would toss out the last reason to own a Tesla. The big retractions have all been a direct result of the tomfoolery in our government. Any retraction Tesla saw turned into an absolute landslide crash in sales after this.
There’s not any adjustment that can be done to fix this. A full redesign following the design ethos of current Teslas might help, but making it blend in with everything else would just make it unappealing to the people who only want Teslas.
I do understand what you mean. One of my cousin used to work in their local gov and at one point went on a trip to her friend's resort in the rural area. They spent a lot of money develop the place (like having giant structural glass helicopter in from miles away) but in the end there are loose faucet in one area and then a squat toilet in another. I asked the hotel owner friend why is that and the answer was: 1) they lack the workmanship that takes decades to develop as these constructions are all NEW to them, hiring foreign craftsman would make it prohibitively expensive to a point of the project not being build, and 2) there are some customers who were NEW money and they grew up using a lot of lower standard stuff, forcing them to use sitting instead of squat toilet for example is not really going to do well in business.
This obviously isn't universal however. The newer generation of middle class who grew up in larger cities don't have the subpar standards those smaller cities with NEW money have (my cousin was in a 3rd tier cities). The upper middle class who work for the higher income jobs tend to have more exposure to higher standard and demand / will pay for higher standard.
I'm sure US have the same contrast of standard if the parents were at a lower social class then suddenly the children enter upper middle class, or when someone from rural low income area move to a large city and roommate with old money's 3rd generation heirs.
Still, back to your original argument of the term "close enough", there is such a term in every language and it doesn't define the people.
Chinese soccer teams were universally hated by people in and out of China because they fake their games all the time, and are subpar in performance in almost every important game. People joked that they are just there for gambling / bookie to bet on. If there is anything that unites all the people in and out of China it would be their entire soccer industry.
That Nike shop is likely either a franchise or a fake company store.
That's a story unto itself. I do remember the first unauthorized "Apple Stores" they had in China. There was something totally off to anyone who knew what they were, but apparently the employees thought they were working for Apple (perhaps through an authorized partner).
An American blogger has discovered three fake Apple stores operating in Kunming city, China.Pictures of the stores, their staff and a description of a stroll around them was posted on the BirdAbroad, external blog.In the article, she writes about conversations with staff, many of whom were convinced that they were employed by the US electronics firm.Chinese officials in Kunming have ordered two fake Apple shops to close, not because of piracy or copyright concerns, but because the stores did not have an official business permit.
I do understand some of the ways that retailers operate in China. Many advertise with their biggest brand name. Almost how a lot of American restaurants or liquor stores used to have big Coca-Cola signs alongside the name of the busisiness. But in China it might just be a logo of the brand name and nothing else. I'm not even sure there's a big question of trademark issues since so many retailers do it without seeking any kind of permission.
They don't enforce a lot of laws that protect private properties, that's for sure. Also a lot of the money were made from rapid expansion so they tend to use a lot of franchise business models, and the head quarter use franchise fee to sustain its stock price. This leads to rapid expansions and rapid collapses unlike the US model where everyone is focusing on their roles and profit with slow and steady growth. It takes quite a few bubble bursting to do it right and they are just entering their first one or two bubble after entering WTO.
I know it's not universal, but it's more buyer beware. And I'm really just applying how this philosophy of cutting corners to the topic at hand, which is Chinese EVs. There might be some world class EVs made in China, but also so dangerous, poorly made deathtraps. I can't think of any American or European EV that I would refuse to get into, but with Chinese EVs, absolutely.
I'm just saying that culturally, there's a lot of that in mainland China. The expression I used predates the CCP government, but I've been to China since the mid-80s when I was visiting as a teen, and I saw "chabuduo" firsthand in a way that I never saw visiting other parts of Asia.
I remember a coworker from mainland China. Worked super hard, but we discussed life in China he said there's a huge dichotomy in quality depending on how much one is willing to spend. I can't imagine that with an American or European car today, but my understanding is with the cheapest Chinese cars today, you're getting the modern equivalent of Yugo level quality.
Ah I see.
So there is a historic documentary youtuber I have been watching today. He never show his screen and use voice synthesizer to read his script, likely because he actually work in the government. One of the episode I have watched was the first Chinese made VW in their country and how VW had to reduce the quality standard so that they can qualify more parts initially from their own domestic sources (formerly Chinese state owned auto makers).
Thing is, based on what I saw my cousins were buying there, the entire Chinese domestic market for everything is bipolar instead of bell curve like the rest of the world. You have a lot of very low end things made for the factory workers and migrant moving into cities, who make $5 a month and can only spend for the cheapest in everything, and then there's the middle class who try to avoid the lowest quality but have to skip a huge gap of price point and go where the knock off cannot make, and are forced to buy the super expensive import by paying a premium. If you pay for middle range you are likely going to get a fake / knock off. I have to explain a lot to the cousins that in the US you can buy the middle of the road products and it is totally safe, and you won't get a fake / knock off you just overpaid. They still aren't convinced and ended up buying the top of the line anything to bring home due to their deep rooted concern.
This tends to follow the social structure where the populations are bipolar in spending power and income unlike the US and (say Japan) where they are more bell curve like.
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Tesla was ground breaking initially because they made it possible in economy of scale, charging infra, start with premium then gradually lower priced model, etc.
The problem is Elon is a bit of an ADHD and get bored. The company were always priced to not just be a car company but a tech company selling a future that is not yet here. Once Elon got bored he had to come up with something else that's cool and today it is Robotaxi, AI, robotics, etc. I personally won't buy its stock just to expect a car company in return, and because of that Elon can't focus too much on cars manufacturing and design but the next big thing they promised Wall Street.
Thing is, if I just want AI and robotaxi I would buy Microsoft or Google stock (Waymo) instead of Tesla. Let's hope he work at least 40 hours a week back in Tesla now as requested by some retirement fund shareholders.
Wow, fantastic video post. Well spoken, really enjoyed it. Maybe more than anything I have seen in here. All of it makes sense to me.
There is no sudden love for China but reality can be a painful master.
This is one example of having to buy something with no other choice to keep companies worldwide in business..
https://www.autoblog.com/news/rare-earth-magnet-shortage-threatens-shutdown-of-u-s-car-factories
I'll buy from US companies personally. In some cases when they don't make what I want I'll go with German or Japanese options. I don't care if China makes the greatest car in the world. Why wouldn't I support my own country or allies?
