Cheaper alternative for fully synthetic oil change

Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
1,554
Location
Oz with Dorothy and Toto
The failure has nothing to do with MDS. This subject has been beaten to death on here.

Cliff notes: the issue, while rare, occurs on both MDS and non-MDS engines. GM has a similar failure. It appears to be a lifter supplier issue (hence it affecting both GM and FCA) and the feedback from an FCA tech on here appears to point to inadequate or improper hardening of the pin that retains the roller and the needle bearings roll against which, when the defect is present, will "groove" and eventually lead to the the roller ceasing to roll. This can manifest as a cascading failure as metal from the failed roller contaminates others and causing them to fail.
There has also been feedback from GM techs/mechanics that the lifter tray is a weak/fail point for the GM engines. :/
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
10,121
Location
SE British Columbia, Canada
Just some food for thought for those who believe in using full synthetic.
So in canada penzoil platinum or ultra platinum regularly goes on sale at 50% off. This makes a 5L jug cost $22 - $30 (depending on which) for a very highly rated oil. The local oil change shop (great canadian oil change) charges $35ca for an oil change if I provide my own oil. This puts the cost of a fully synthetic oil change at about $60. It takes 15 mins and they also inspect all other fluids, inflate tires to proper psi, and do a visual inspection underneath for leaks, cracks, ect... this means if I do a change every 3 months (which is usually way less than 8000km's my total cost for a year is $240 and I always have good clean fully synthetic oil. I'm sure if you ask around where you live you could find a similar deal
If you act fast you can get $10 per jug off of Pennzoil products in Canada. Offer ends Dec 31. The Great Canadian Oil Change outlet in my town (Cranbrook) is great.

Edit: They mayhave shut down the offer for over subscription. Check in 2021. Google Pennzoil CANADA.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JC1
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
26,548
Location
Upstate NY
Some have a generic dirty cabin air filter they bring out to waiting room to show you how dirty is it. They show everyone the same dirty one. If you say change it then you get a new one regardless of the real condition of the one in your car.
 

Grand cherokee hemi

Thread starter
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
90
In my drive way I could do more than 10 of your changes a years. But ten would be a little over the top wouldn't it. I just picked up RGT for $14.76 for a 5 quart Jug at Home Depot. and its not trick to get a better oil filter than you are getting at the oil change Store for $6 and change. My guess is you can get away with an April October OCI easy in Canada. 8000 Km's is less than 5000 miles. I do my OCI's at 5 to 7K miles and my UOA comes in looking great. That come to a total annual cost of under $50 US.
Whats rgt?
 

Grand cherokee hemi

Thread starter
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
90
The failure has nothing to do with MDS. This subject has been beaten to death on here.

Cliff notes: the issue, while rare, occurs on both MDS and non-MDS engines. GM has a similar failure. It appears to be a lifter supplier issue (hence it affecting both GM and FCA) and the feedback from an FCA tech on here appears to point to inadequate or improper hardening of the pin that retains the roller and the needle bearings roll against which, when the defect is present, will "groove" and eventually lead to the the roller ceasing to roll. This can manifest as a cascading failure as metal from the failed roller contaminates others and causing them to fail.
Oh ok.... thanks for the info... there's a lot of info on another forum about this and a couple of videos on youtube. They refer to the problem as "the dreaded hemi tick" and show what they claim to be the cause and effect (explaining that 95% of the time you'll notice the worn/scard lobe with be on an MDS lifter.
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
10,121
Location
SE British Columbia, Canada
Just some food for thought for those who believe in using full synthetic.
So in canada penzoil platinum or ultra platinum regularly goes on sale at 50% off. This makes a 5L jug cost $22 - $30 (depending on which) for a very highly rated oil. The local oil change shop (great canadian oil change) charges $35ca for an oil change if I provide my own oil. This puts the cost of a fully synthetic oil change at about $60. It takes 15 mins and they also inspect all other fluids, inflate tires to proper psi, and do a visual inspection underneath for leaks, cracks, ect... this means if I do a change every 3 months (which is usually way less than 8000km's my total cost for a year is $240 and I always have good clean fully synthetic oil. I'm sure if you ask around where you live you could find a similar deal
With all politeness, haha, the OP is talking about the Great Canadian Oil Change franchise. Come up to Canada ( when the border opens) and try them out. You’ll be presently surprised.
 
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
732
Location
Vancouver, Canada
To OP, if you have to get oil change done by someone and all you need/want is synth oil - get Kirkland oil at Costco in store, it goes on sale at times and runs C$30 for 2x4.73L jugs. Another option is to catch Penn Plat on sale while Pennzoil runs MIR promo on their website making oil as cheap as C$15 for 5L jug. Supertech goes on sale at WM at times going at C$15 for 5L jug too.
If DIY is an option - go for it as you'll most def save ton of $$$ overtime.
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
48,055
Location
Ontario, Canada
Oh ok.... thanks for the info... there's a lot of info on another forum about this and a couple of videos on youtube. They refer to the problem as "the dreaded hemi tick" and show what they claim to be the cause and effect (explaining that 95% of the time you'll notice the worn/scard lobe with be on an MDS lifter.

If it's the Uncle Tony videos you can safely disregard those. His first video seemed to betray a lack of understanding of the lifter bores being pressure lubed, something he tried to address in his follow-up after getting feedback on that point.

The issue has occurred on Hellcat engines, which of course don't have MDS, as well as non-MDS HEMI's that were fitted to cars with the 6spd manual.

Plenty of tear-downs will show failure of a non-MDS lifter as well.

As with anything, the more of something on the market, the bigger the rate of occurrence for a given defect percentage. So, for the HEMI, with the largest install base being the RAM, that's where the majority of failures are going to be, not because the failure rate is higher than in other applications, but simply because the sample size is that much larger.

If we take the FCA tech's statement regarding the failure mechanism at face value, there's nothing you are going to be able to do via oil selection that is going to ward off failure. How quickly the defect manifests will depend on the severity, if the pin has extremely poor hardening, the failure may be quite rapid, if on the other hand it's only marginally below where it should be, it may last the life of the truck. We recently had an engine experience this at work (first one in the fleet) at just under 300,000km, while other trucks have higher mileage and have been fine. It spent its life on NAPA bulk 5w-20 and NAPA filters, nothing exotic. The same with all the other trucks that are still operating without issue.

Like with GM, there have been multiple revisions of the lifters at this point, with hopes that it has been completely resolved with every iteration. Guess we'll see how it plays out going forward. There are guys that did the Hellcat lifter swap and MDS delete and still had them fail, lol.
 

Grand cherokee hemi

Thread starter
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
90
Rotella Gas Truck.
Lol... just looked up RGT at canadian tire and (i know this will shock you) you can get it way cheaper (even accounting for $$ conversion) than your neighbors to the north. It's $60 for 5L here though it probably goes on sale too... it has good reviews to so looks like another good option ( especially for you)
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
48,055
Location
Ontario, Canada
Lol... just looked up RGT at canadian tire and (i know this will shock you) you can get it way cheaper (even accounting for $$ conversion) than your neighbors to the north. It's $60 for 5L here though it probably goes on sale too... it has good reviews to so looks like another good option ( especially for you)

Take a peek at my location ;)
 

Grand cherokee hemi

Thread starter
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
90
If it's the Uncle Tony videos you can safely disregard those. His first video seemed to betray a lack of understanding of the lifter bores being pressure lubed, something he tried to address in his follow-up after getting feedback on that point.

The issue has occurred on Hellcat engines, which of course don't have MDS, as well as non-MDS HEMI's that were fitted to cars with the 6spd manual.

Plenty of tear-downs will show failure of a non-MDS lifter as well.

As with anything, the more of something on the market, the bigger the rate of occurrence for a given defect percentage. So, for the HEMI, with the largest install base being the RAM, that's where the majority of failures are going to be, not because the failure rate is higher than in other applications, but simply because the sample size is that much larger.

If we take the FCA tech's statement regarding the failure mechanism at face value, there's nothing you are going to be able to do via oil selection that is going to ward off failure. How quickly the defect manifests will depend on the severity, if the pin has extremely poor hardening, the failure may be quite rapid, if on the other hand it's only marginally below where it should be, it may last the life of the truck. We recently had an engine experience this at work (first one in the fleet) at just under 300,000km, while other trucks have higher mileage and have been fine. It spent its life on NAPA bulk 5w-20 and NAPA filters, nothing exotic. The same with all the other trucks that are still operating without issue.

Like with GM, there have been multiple revisions of the lifters at this point, with hopes that it has been completely resolved with every iteration. Guess we'll see how it plays out going forward. There are guys that did the Hellcat lifter swap and MDS delete and still had them fail, lol.
Good to know... thanks for the info...
If you act fast you can get $10 per jug off of Pennzoil products in Canada. Offer ends Dec 31. The Great Canadian Oil Change outlet in my town (Cranbrook) is great.

Edit: They mayhave shut down the offer for over subscription. Check in 2021. Google Pennzoil CANADA.
Ya I bought a couple on that offer
 

Grand cherokee hemi

Thread starter
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
90
Some have a generic dirty cabin air filter they bring out to waiting room to show you how dirty is it. They show everyone the same dirty one. If you say change it then you get a new one regardless of the real condition of the one in your car.
Wow it sounds like you've had some ****ty experiences... at great canadian you stay in your vehicle while the change is done... and they have tv's showing you the people underneath your car and hood and what there doing. When they check each fluid they show you a sample of yours side by side with brand new so you can see (and decide) for yourself.
 

Grand cherokee hemi

Thread starter
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
90
I am of course aware that I could do it cheaper myself. For me the convenience of having them check (and top up) every fluid, (including washer fluid) tire pressure and do a visual/physical of all belts, hoses, cv boots, ball joints, lights, ect... is a pretty good deal for $35ca ($27us). Add to this not having to dispose of my own oil, crawl around under my vehicle, and my time (probably better part of an hour) and it quickly (in my mind) becomes worth it. It sounds like alot of guys also get pretty good deals on oil and are content changing oil twice a year. I know oils (particularly fully synthetic) are better today than they used to be, but call me old fashioned i grew up with changing your oil every 5000km/3 months. I know alot of shops won't let you bring in your own oil, and had seen alot of places charging $99ca for a fully synthetic service so just figured some people might find it helpful
 

JC1

Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
6,535
Location
Oshawa, Ontario Canada
Just some food for thought for those who believe in using full synthetic.
So in canada penzoil platinum or ultra platinum regularly goes on sale at 50% off. This makes a 5L jug cost $22 - $30 (depending on which) for a very highly rated oil. The local oil change shop (great canadian oil change) charges $35ca for an oil change if I provide my own oil. This puts the cost of a fully synthetic oil change at about $60. It takes 15 mins and they also inspect all other fluids, inflate tires to proper psi, and do a visual inspection underneath for leaks, cracks, ect... this means if I do a change every 3 months (which is usually way less than 8000km's my total cost for a year is $240 and I always have good clean fully synthetic oil. I'm sure if you ask around where you live you could find a similar deal
With all politeness, haha, the OP is talking about the Great Canadian Oil Change franchise. Come up to Canada ( when the border opens) and try them out. You’ll be presently surprised.
No thanks! The great Canadian oil change for me is in my own garage. Not letting anyone else near my drain plug besides my teenage son.

I'm using a fumoto drain valve and Fram Ultra, so I change the filter in the warmer months and leave it on for the winter. Need to change out the VWB soon, so it will only be a drain and fill in the caravan this time of the year.

To the OP, buy your Pennzoil Platinum or ultra when on sale and do it yourself if you can. Get yourself the filter of your own choosing and sleep easy. Learn how to check your own fluids and crawl underneath for leaks. Too many of these places do the old upsell routine and a cheap oil change and it becomes a $150 service (you need a new cabin filter and new air filter etc).
 
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
18,952
Location
...
Another alternative is to purchase cheaper synthetic oil. Pennzoil is not the only brand out there. Chevron offers a great deal on their Havoline Pro DS in a six quart box. Excellent oil and a excellent price, less than $20 US for the box.
 
Top