Changing water pump on a 2004 Kia Rio.

[wtd]

well, here is an update on this repair. Three weeks after we picked the car up, I looked under her car and discovered a large oil leak. The entire undercarriage on the passenger side of her car was soaked with oil as well as a pool of oil on the ground.

I take the car back to the dealer and they tell me that the crank seal is leaking and that it probably caused because the quality of the seal I provided is not up to the standard of the factory seal. They also said that the PCV valve was partially plugged and could have caused the seal to blow out. My daughter currently has the car so I can't look at the PCV valve but I doubt that was the problem since it still seemed to work fine the last time I checked it and this car had no major leaks before bringing it in.

I used a Dayco timing belt kit and everything I read said this was a good brand.

So the bottom line on this deal is that the dealer will not cover anything and did not prove what actually caused the leak. I argued it could have been caused by incorrect installation but of course they said that was not it. I realize that they are not obligated to warranty the seal since it was not one of theirs. Since I did not use their part, the labor is also not covered.

I'm basically screwed. They now want $1012 to fix this. That is not going to happen. I guess my ex-wife is going to try and sell the car as is and get my daughter something else.

I wouldn't doubt that it could be installation error because the other day when I discovered the oil leak, I discovered that the ground cable located in the area of the repair was almost broke in half as well as the edge of the lower belt accessory belt which was new, was frayed and had a piece of wire hanging off of it. I'm not sure how that happened.

So I guess I learned a valuable lesson here. When providing your own parts, you had better make sure what is covered and what is not. So we basically spent over $600 in labor for nothing.

Wayne

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: wtd
So the bottom line on this deal is that the dealer will not cover anything and did not prove what actually caused the leak. I argued it could have been caused by incorrect installation but of course they said that was not it. I realize that they are not obligated to warranty the seal since it was not one of theirs. Since I did not use their part, the labor is also not covered.


Didn't they tell you that upfront before starting the work ?

 

[SHOZ]

I have an Accent with the same engine, at least I think it's the same.

If there is any slack on the right side of the timing belt when installed it will be off a tooth when you rotate the engine a couple times. I start to line up the belt and making sure it is tight, tap the belt over the cam sprocket a little at a time with a plastic hammer. It should throw a cam timing code the second time the car is started if off a tooth.

Once the tensioner is set and bolted down the spring on it does nothing.

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: wtd
So the bottom line on this deal is that the dealer will not cover anything and did not prove what actually caused the leak. I argued it could have been caused by incorrect installation but of course they said that was not it. I realize that they are not obligated to warranty the seal since it was not one of theirs. Since I did not use their part, the labor is also not covered.


Didn't they tell you that upfront before starting the work ?


No they didn't. If something wasn't installed correctly or was damaged by the mechanic regardless of what part was used, something should be covered by the dealer. Since there has not been any conclusive evidence as to why the seal is leaking after only a few weeks and a couple of hundred miles of driving and I cannot prove why it is leaking, I'm just going to have to take this one as a learning experience and move on.

I didn't get to see where exactly the seal was leaking at since they had everything bolted back up when I got to the dealer. I don't know if the seal that goes around the end of the crank was leaking or if it's leaking where the metal part of the seal is recessed into the bore that is leaking.

I have the old seals and they pried them out along the outer edge of the seals so it's possible that the bore where the seal sits in was gouged enough to cause a leak.

Wayne

 

[MiKe3o]

I am shocked they even used aftermarket parts that you supplied. When I was at the dealer we would get that request but would never allow those parts to be used. We would work to cut the parts price to compete. It is not that aftermarket parts are bad, it opens the dealer up to speculation when something like this happens.

The factory parts when bought and installed at a dealer the part and installed get a warranty, that often gets billed just like original warranty to the manufacturer. We often used this in a pinch.

 

[cptbarkey]

Dayco makes quality parts, they are not Gates quality, but they are typically just fine. Sorry to hear about your story.

 

[wtd]

It is a lesson learned. I know years ago I was talking to a mechanic at the Chevy dealer I went to and he told me they used auto parts store parts all of the time when they didn't have factory parts in stock. I don't doubt that other dealers do the same because in a lot of cases, the customer will never know the difference. I have also seen the local auto parts parts truck at various dealers over the years so I'm sure they are delivering parts to the dealer.

The one issue I have and one I discussed with the dealer was that when they were ordering one of the factory cam seals that they claimed was wrong in the Dayco kit, they never suggested to me that the seals I was using were low quality and that I should use factory ones in this situation. I would have bought them since I was already buying one factory seal and they were that deep into the repair. They just told me that they don't try to up-sell products to the customer which I know is [censored] because they do it all of the time in maintenance situations.

As far as Dayco vs Gates go, I have always had better luck with Dayco belts vs the Gates ones and the Dayco serpentine belts that I have bought have a 3 year warranty vs the one year on the Gates belts.

Wayne

 

[doitmyself]

I'm very sorry to hear about your outcome. This is the type of thing that can ruin the anticipated value of buying a used car. You truly can only chock it up to experience and move on.

Car repair is changing. We have had many recent discussions about the decline of after market parts quality. At the same time, some vehicle brands really hike up the price of OEM parts to the point of being ridiculous. This leaves us in a catch-22 situation. Pay exorbitant amounts or gamble on alternative methods.

I would imagine that this was a learning experience for your dealer also, since it seems that they put more hours into it than they got paid for. You are uncertain if the dealer mechanic messed up, and they have valid reasons to suspect a lousy diy first attempt and/or defective after market parts. Everybody lost in this instance.

I wish you the best in moving forward.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: wtd
I have the old seals and they pried them out along the outer edge of the seals so it's possible that the bore where the seal sits in was gouged enough to cause a leak.


That's a real possibility. And if that's the case, the OEM dealer seal would've leaked too.

 

[wtd]

In the original parts replacement when we first bought the car, the cam and crank seals were not replaced and to my knowledge the ones that the dealer removed were the original ones. The question is whether the mechanic damaged the bore removing the old seals, did not install the aftermarket seal correctly, or the aftermarket seal was defective.

I never did price the parts at the dealer for everything that was replaced, but they charged my $20 for just the one OEM cam seal that they used. I paid only about $61 for the entire timing belt kit which included the timing belt, belt tensioner, idler pulley, a belt tensioner spring, and the seals minus the water pump. The Aisin water pump I bought was $39. The one seal in the kit that they said was wrong and is still new, looks like a quality piece. The rest of the parts in the kit looked good as well.

The local shop that I got a quote from that was only going to replace my Water pump and was going to use an Aisin pump as well, was going to charge me $697 for the part and labor. He would not use my Aisin pump so if his labor rates were similar to the dealers, he was going to charge me almost $300 for the pump alone. Who knows how much he and the dealer would charge me if you added in the additional parts I had replaced.

The dealer also recommended changing the valve cover gasket since it was seeping oil. Their charge for the labor and gasket was $170. That is way steep for a job that is pretty easy to do and really doesn't take very long at all.

The bottom line is that the dealers and many shops rape people on parts prices and is why people try to save money like I tried to do. In this case, it backfired on me but in many other instances, I have saved a lot of money and had nothing go wrong.

Wayne

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: wtd


The bottom line is that the dealers and many shops rape people on parts prices and is why people try to save money like I tried to do. In this case, it backfired on me but in many other instances, I have saved a lot of money and had nothing go wrong.

Wayne



Is it really rape though? Using their parts at their prices in most all situations guarantees that they will stand behind their work. In this specific situation, it would quite likely mean that you or your ex wife wouldn't be looking for a new vehicle, and that the dealer would stand behind either the faulty part or defective installation and your daughter would be blithely motoring along right now. Would the money you saved n the repair by providing your own parts offset the cost of a new (used) vehicle for your daughter to drive?

It seems that many people want to get up in arms about the cost of parts or repairs from a shop, but if you or the next guy isn't able or willing to do them, then you are at the mercy of a business... and they have to make their money. They, for the most part are not the "Evil Empire". It sounds like the dealer was pretty decent, not pushing unnecessary repairs or up-sells... They shouldn't be expected to stand behind your parts. I think the take away here should be do it your self or take a hands off approach and let an indy or dealer do your heavy lifting. One or the other. This mixing and matching stuff can be a major pain for ALL involved.

 

[wtd]

First of all I never said that I expected the dealer to stand behind the parts I provided. What I didn't like was that they made a determination that the seal had failed but just assumed it was a bad part. Dealer mechanics do make mistakes and it could have been from a bad installation or damaging the seal bore on removal of the old seals. They never said definitely that the quality of the seal was at fault but that it could have been. No proof of anything.

They actually did try to up-sell some repair work when they gave me a quote on what it was going to cost to replace the crank seal. They added $170 for a valve cover gasket and replacement because the seal was seeping oil. That didn't need to be done right that moment so yes, they did try to up-sell me.

If you think that dealer prices on parts is mostly fair, then you must be rich. On many parts, I can buy the exact same brand and part # online for a fraction of the price and some of the online places I buy parts for are actually dealerships that are willing to sell parts at a discount and make plenty of money by the volume of stuff they sell.

I have already admitted that the route I took was not the best one but I would never have had the dealer do the entire repair using their parts anyway as I wasn't going to put over a $1,000 in a car that was worth about double that plus the car has other issues as well that still need to be addressed.

This entire thing would have never happened in the first place if the lady that set up the appointment would have written the correct information down on the repair order. I never wanted the crank and cam seals replaced in the first place. I was very specific when I said I only wanted the water pump, timing belt, belt tensioner, and idler pulley replaced. Nothing else. There was no major oil leaks on this car prior to this repair, especially nothing that would have required the replacement of all of those seals.

They tried to make me pay around $1,000 for installing the crank and cam seals as well as the other things they did at the time of the original repair. They only dropped it down after I told them I never wanted or authorized them to change those seals. I think they saw an opportunity to make more money by changing those seals since they already had that side of the engine mostly torn down.

Wayne

 

[Merkava_4]

Lesson learned: If you're gonna hire the dealer, don't try to save $5 by providing your own parts.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Lesson learned: If you're gonna hire the dealer, don't try to save $500 by providing your own parts.


Fixed it for you trolcava_4!

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Lesson learned: If you're gonna hire the dealer, don't try to save $500 by providing your own parts.


Fixed it for you trolcava_4!
Not really. A friend of mine is a mechanic, people are constantly wanting to provide their own parts to save money. They can't buy parts cheaper than he can.

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Lesson learned: If you're gonna hire the dealer, don't try to save $5 by providing your own parts.


What I also learned is don't assume that the person who set up your appointment passed on the exact work to be performed on to the mechanics and service advisor. At this dealership when you call to make an appointment, you don't talk to a service advisor. They have some lady that sets up the appointments.

I don't mind paying a fair price for parts but in the case of the local independent shop that was going to charge me almost $300 for the exact same part that I paid $40 for, I have a problem with that. Does anyone think that is a good deal? When I asked about using my water pump instead of his, he told me he wasn't interested in doing the job in that case so basically what he was telling me was that he wanted to charge me way over what he should for the exact same part and brand that I had already bought. I'm not interested in getting ripped off for that amount of money.

The dealers are the same way. I have not found too many parts from the dealer that are not overpriced and a lot of them are not any better quality than the after market parts I have bought. For example, for many years I was buying AC-Delco belt tensioners for my two 98 chevy trucks from the dealer. They never lasted very long before they started making noise. I ended up buying gates or Dayco tensioners and they would last just as long but were much cheaper. AC-Delco plug wires from the dealer is another example. These would be arcing through the insulation in no time on my 98 1500 chevy truck. I went with an aftermarket brand that has now been on the truck for years and around 60,000 miles with none of the same problems. These are just a couple of examples.

If the quality of the dealer replacement parts was on par with what came out originally on the vehicle and usually lasted quite a long time, I wouldn't have such a problem paying the increased cost but in my experience, many of the replacement parts from a dealer are not as good as what originally came on the vehicle.

Anyway, my daughter is using my old Cavalier until they decide what they are going to do about hers.

Wayne

 

[SatinSilver]

I'm getting a cost of $300 to replace the front crank seal on a 2004 Kia Rio:

https://www.yourmechanic.com/book/

Also have the pcv valve replaced with an oem one if you go forward. Always save the details for the service advisor instead of the appointment taker. I even make sure I deal with an advisor I like sometimes even deal with the service manager.

 

[Merkava_4]

I wish I could see an exploded parts diagram of the engine. I'd like to see exactly where that crank seal goes. Usually they go into a timing chain cover, but this engine has a belt. Looking at the picture of the seal on RockAuto, it obviously goes around the end of the crankshaft as it sits in some kind of recessed bore.

 

[SHOZ]

Here's the timing belt crank sprocket for the 2008
Accent 1.6L

 

[wtd]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
I'm getting a cost of $300 to replace the front crank seal on a 2004 Kia Rio:

https://www.yourmechanic.com/book/

Also have the pcv valve replaced with an oem one if you go forward. Always save the details for the service advisor instead of the appointment taker. I even make sure I deal with an advisor I like sometimes even deal with the service manager.


The total cost that the dealer gave me to replace the seal and pcv valve and which includes the price of the parts is $560.35 This doesn't include the 170.87 they added to the repair estimate for the valve cover replacement and part which wasn't really needed at this moment.

So if we use your $300 estimate to replace the seal which I assume doesn't include the price of the part, the dealer was going to charge me $260.35 for the price of the crank seal and pcv valve. I guess a little bit of that price might have to be reduced a little for the charge for replacing the PCV valve but the labor charge on that can't be that high. Keep in mind that the dealer initially charged me $20 for what I assume was a cam seal when they claimed that one of my seals in the kit was wrong. Both the cam seals and crank seals on this engine look very similar in design with just a small size difference.

So the bottom line is that this dealer was trying to charge me at least $200 or more for the price of two small parts that I know don't cost anywhere close to that. So does anyone still think that dealer parts prices are fair?

Unfortunately for me, they didn't put any of the part numbers or even name which seal they replaced with their dealership one on the repair order so I just have to take their word for it that it was one of the cam seals they replaced with their own seal.

Wayne