Changing oil to early harmful?

jeremyquinn · Oct 1, 2005

A couple of years ago (before I found this forum) I saw a website where this guy was doing extented OCIs on his Camaro with M1. He was saying how the oil companies want you to use the 3/3 method so you spend more money. He also made the point that if you change your oil too early and often that it is actually harmful to your engine because the engine has to work hard just to get the oil to a point where it is broken down enough to lubricate properly.

What do you guys think about this?

Big Jim · Oct 1, 2005

I would say that the guy is trying to give you an advanced college degree. You know, a PHD.

You must know that a four year science degree is a BS, and we all know what that really means.

The next degree is called an MS, or mor of the same.

The highest degree is the PHD, or piled higher and deeper.

I would tell him that he can keep his PHD.

mechtech · Oct 1, 2005

I thought PhD meant post hole digger...

Bill in Utah · Oct 1, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by jeremyquinn:
A couple of years ago (before I found this forum) I saw a website where this guy was doing extented OCIs on his Camaro with M1. He was saying how the oil companies want you to use the 3/3 method so you spend more money. He also made the point that if you change your oil too early and often that it is actually harmful to your engine because the engine has to work hard just to get the oil to a point where it is broken down enough to lubricate properly.

What do you guys think about this?

Cheers! Bill

PS: What they really want you to do is buy and change the Mobil 1 every 3k or 3months...

hominid7 · Oct 1, 2005

Never trust a guy in a Camaro...

You can change your oil every week and the only risk you take is to your drain plug threads!

and for the record, i have a "MS"....Messed-up Seriously?

KW · Oct 1, 2005

That guy with the Camaro would be the former 3MP from this list. What he was getting at was oil take a while to work in to it's own. He was tracking wear rates with M1 5W30 over one year...18K. Wear actually was less after a few thousand miles than when the oil was new. But new oil will not hurt your car at all.

MGBV8 · Oct 1, 2005

http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm

Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil. This finding was unexpected and initially confusing (further inquiry suggested that the result was not so surprising, as many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance their effectiveness). Although based on limited data, the finding could be significant, and verification should be pursued. If the finding is verified, the mechanisms should be determined, and ramifications with respect to oil change intervals, filter involvement, and additive packages should be considered. A similar finding for diesel engines could have even greater significance, since the topics of extended oil drain and, in some cases heavy exhaust gas recirculation are of major interest. Although the conditioning run altered the oil, it did not stress or render it unusable (as noted, there is indication that it was tribologically improved). As such, the impact of testing with significantly stressed oil was not measured and remains a future objective

reyjay1 · Oct 1, 2005

Just from personal observations i am starting to come around to this theory. In the truck, it seems like after an OC, it takes about 1000mi for the oil to "come into its own" so to speak. That is when the engin really semms to not to have to labor against the oil as much, this is with 15w40's . This also seems to correspond with when the oil starts to show some darkening on the dipsick. Interesting .

oilyriser · Oct 1, 2005

Every oil change comes with a very slight chance that someone will screw up. The more often you change, the more likely it is someone will forget to do something important.

Pablo · Oct 1, 2005

You see there is a point here, not to be mocked.

You could probably change your oil every day and it wouldn't wear the moving parts of your engine out - HOWEVER this does NOT mean there would not be LESS wear than changing at appropriate intervals for the oil, engine, situation.

Besides just think of the waste oil.

Funny how the web is 3 mad pancheros was working through BiTOG - now he's a nut. Not sure he said the stuff about "broken down properly to work" stuff....

OldTireMan · Oct 1, 2005

Just a question from a newbie

Is it possible that more frequent OCIs, 3-month 3-k miles increase wear more than extended OCIs?
My theory is based on increased dry starts imediately after an oil change.

texasproud · Oct 1, 2005

I thought the Camaro test was a much better attempt at a "real world test" than we were getting from the oil companies. However common sense would indicate that 3/3 oil changes can get you prolonged service from most production motors as there are tons of them out there with over 300,000 miles on 3/3 OCIs. Are 3/3 OCIs necessary to get long life ? Not necessarily. That is proven time and time again looking at the UOAs on this forum.

goodvibes · Oct 1, 2005

I can't see how clean oil wouldn't be better as long as it's the same brand/type as used previously and has the same add pack. If a UOA shows worse #s after 1k mi, maybe the fresh oil is cleaning a bit of what the used stuff left behind. That said, I also see no problem in extrnded OCIs if watched.

Kestas · Oct 1, 2005

If this were true, then shouldn't race car teams be pre-conditioning the oil used in the engine before race day by running it on the track during the time trials? After all, that's what they do with the tires.

XS650 · Oct 1, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Big Jim:
I would say that the guy is trying to give you an advanced college degree. You know, a PHD.

You must know that a four year science degree is a BS, and we all know what that really means.

The next degree is called an MS, or mor of the same.

The highest degree is the PHD, or piled higher and deeper.

I would tell him that he can keep his PHD.

Speaking of PHD, how's your electric supercharger?

XS650 · Oct 1, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Kestas:
If this were true, then shouldn't race car teams be pre-conditioning the oil used in the engine before race day by running it on the track during the time trials? After all, that's what they do with the tires.

Race care owners aren't typically as interested in small differences in long term wear.

vad · Oct 1, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by XS650:
Speaking of PHD, how's your electric supercharger?

I really dig this one!

Blue99 · Oct 1, 2005

Per MGBV8's post, as stated at the SWRI link:

quote:

...as many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance their effectiveness).

The SWRI statement echoes the findings of an SAE paper as summarized by Drstressor in a Previous Thread from 2004

quote:

You guys really need to read Gao et al, SAE 2003-01-3119. ConocoPhillips and Ford engineers tested 5W-20 oils with different levels of ZDDP using a laboratory valve train bench test that employed constant monitoring of a radioactive tracer embedded in the metal as well as wear scar measurements. In a number of tests, they compared fresh oil with the same oil after 12,000 of engine service using both fresh and broken in metal surfaces. Their results show pretty conclusively that the anti-wear properties of an oil improve with age. They speculate that the increase performance could be due to accumulation of high MW oxidation products of the base oil or intermediate reaction products of the anti-wear compounds. Nobody understands why this happens, but a reduction in wear rates as oil ages seems to be an empirical reality. As I have mentioned elsewhere on this board, neat little models that try to explain anti-wear surface chemistry and the interaction of various boundary lubricants, friction modifiers, and metal surfaces are just speculation. These chemistries are complex and not well understood.

So it appears the performance of anti-wear additives can improve with the pumping/heat cycles of an aged oil.

But a motor oil contains other additives and the performance of VI improvers, TBN, and friction modifiers certainly decrease with engine run time.

hominid7 · Oct 2, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by OldTireMan:
Just a question from a newbie

Is it possible that more frequent OCIs, 3-month 3-k miles increase wear more than extended OCIs?
My theory is based on increased dry starts imediately after an oil change.

In theory, yes....However if you pre-fill your filter at oil change you reduce the "dry start-up" problem a great deal.

Having said that, I change my oil often and I never pre-fill my filter and have never had a problem in the 400,000 or so miles i've driven on my cars.

y_p_w · Oct 2, 2005

I brought up this subject (of aged oil improving wear rates) a couple of months ago. I think the key is that the effect isn't huge, but is measurable. "Harmful" is probably too strong a word.

Of course the next question is why an oil's AW package couldn't be "pre-aged". My guess is that this would A) cost money and B) might cause the AW package to solidify in the bottle (rather than on engine surfaces).

There are several cars with large oil sumps and only maybe 2/3 of the oil is changed typically. The Porsche Boxster has maybe a 12 quart capacity with an 8 quart oil change.

Changing oil to early harmful?

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