CF-2 vs natural gas engine oil

[chilson450]

I'm looking for an oil for a single cylinder oilfield type engine. I see they make special oils for industrial engines that run on natural gas. Looks like they come in 30w, 40w and 15w40. This oil is not readily available in small quantities. Usually a drum or larger. My question is if a 30w CF-2 rated oil would be similar to the natural gas oils? I see they are both lower ash content. Thanks for any help.

 

[userfriendly]

I think that you should look for an oil with a higher ash content to guard against valve seat recession.
Delo 400 SAE 30 or 40 at 1.5 will do.

 

[fantastic]

Valvoline was advertising an HDEO oil for "All" engines including NG. Any modern CK-4 HDEO should work & the only issue becomes changing it out in a reasonable time since they can become acidic faster w/NG.

 

[Hohn]

I think that you should look for an oil with a higher ash content to guard against valve seat recession.
Delo 400 SAE 30 or 40 at 1.5 will do.

And also be sure to operate the engine at least at ~70% load. Nothing kills the valve seats on a NG engine as fast as prolonged operating at idle or low load.

At least, based on my experience supporting Aggreko with their Cummins 60L nat gas engines.

 

[userfriendly]

And also be sure to operate the engine at least at ~70% load. Nothing kills the valve seats on a NG engine as fast as prolonged operating at idle or low load.

At least, based on my experience supporting Aggreko with their Cummins 60L nat gas engines.

Same goes for California irrigation pumps running on the cng grid. Every thing from 225 slant 6’s to 454 bbc’s operating around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm all day and night.
Typically rebuilt with 9.5-10:1 compression, hard valve seats and a little extra top ring gap.

 

[Hohn]

Same goes for California irrigation pumps running on the cng grid. Every thing from 225 slant 6’s to 454 bbc’s operating around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm all day and night.
Typically rebuilt with 9.5-10:1 compression, hard valve seats and a little extra top ring gap.

Yeah, I asked one of our natural gas engineers and he told me that the valves and seats need to get hot enough to generate a protective oxide film that acts like a dry film lube. Without that film, the wear rate is rapid because gas burns so cleanly there's no lubricity from soot.

I think a lot of people don't realize just how much soot acts like a dry film lube on most valve seats. I can tell you a story about 60L diesel engines at a gold mine in Siberia. They rebuilt the engine with the original cylinder heads for a "dirtier" emissions recipe with more acceptable smoke (this is remote siberia, not hugely concerned with emissions).

But they recalibrated the engines to a newer calibration to get more fuel economy. This calibration also happened to be a reduced emissions recipe with less smoke. 2800 hours later, all the valve lash was used up. With the old calibration, you'd only do a midlife lash check after the initial baseline at 50-100 hours. MASSIVE increase in valve and seat wear when the soot was taken out of the calibration.

 

[userfriendly]

Yeah, I asked one of our natural gas engineers and he told me that the valves and seats need to get hot enough to generate a protective oxide film that acts like a dry film lube. Without that film, the wear rate is rapid because gas burns so cleanly there's no lubricity from soot.

I think a lot of people don't realize just how much soot acts like a dry film lube on most valve seats. I can tell you a story about 60L diesel engines at a gold mine in Siberia. They rebuilt the engine with the original cylinder heads for a "dirtier" emissions recipe with more acceptable smoke (this is remote siberia, not hugely concerned with emissions).

But they recalibrated the engines to a newer calibration to get more fuel economy. This calibration also happened to be a reduced emissions recipe with less smoke. 2800 hours later, all the valve lash was used up. With the old calibration, you'd only do a midlife lash check after the initial baseline at 50-100 hours. MASSIVE increase in valve and seat wear when the soot was taken out of the calibration.

It makes sense then to keep the load high in industrial applications to produce enough heat to avoid valve seat recession.
I owned several LPG fuelled vehicles between 1987 and 2007. Your 2,800 hour valve lash check would equate to over 100,000 miles over the road.
The engines that lasted forever used a quart of oil about every thousand miles. If a cylinder head had to be removed because a valve seat dropped or spring broke, the cylinder cross hatch was still visible even after several hundred thousand miles.
Now we burn natural gas to produce electricity to charge EVs instead of burning natural gas in ice vehicles.

 

[Hohn]

It makes sense then to keep the load high in industrial applications to produce enough heat to avoid valve seat recession.
I owned several LPG fuelled vehicles between 1987 and 2007. Your 2,800 hour valve lash check would equate to over 100,000 miles over the road.
The engines that lasted forever used a quart of oil about every thousand miles. If a cylinder head had to be removed because a valve seat dropped or spring broke, the cylinder cross hatch was still visible even after several hundred thousand miles.
Now we burn natural gas to produce electricity to charge EVs instead of burning natural gas in ice vehicles.

Indeed.

It really makes one think about the effect of fuel chemistry on engine durability. Gaseous fuels have zero oil dilution and are inherently very "clean."

I know of several natural gas engines that have passed 80,000 hours of operation and look incredibly clean and the crosshatch is still visible on the borescope. If you keep them loaded and running at nearly constant speed and load, they seem to last almost forever.

 

[oil pan 4]

I'm looking for an oil for a single cylinder oilfield type engine. I see they make special oils for industrial engines that run on natural gas. Looks like they come in 30w, 40w and 15w40. This oil is not readily available in small quantities. Usually a drum or larger. My question is if a 30w CF-2 rated oil would be similar to the natural gas oils? I see they are both lower ash content. Thanks for any help.

Is it wellhead gas or is it utility natural gas?

 

[userfriendly]

Indeed.

It really makes one think about the effect of fuel chemistry on engine durability. Gaseous fuels have zero oil dilution and are inherently very "clean."

I know of several natural gas engines that have passed 80,000 hours of operation and look incredibly clean and the crosshatch is still visible on the borescope. If you keep them loaded and running at nearly constant speed and load, they seem to last almost forever.

The “Motor Oil Geek” made a video on fuel chemistry and how it affects engine wear.
From my observations with lpg I knew that his findings had merit and should be investigated.

 

[chilson450]

Is it wellhead gas or is it utility natural gas?

Most of the time wellhead gas. Sometimes it runs on propane.

 

[oil pan 4]

Most of the time wellhead gas. Sometimes it runs on propane.

We'll head gas can be nasty, can have a lot of sulfur in it. Yeah modern off the shelf diesel oils are not made to deal with high sulfur levels like oil from the days when 500ppm was considered "low sulfur". You'll want that extra high TBN oil made for gas field engines.
If you know that gas field is low sulfur or will change the oil often then off the shelf diesel engine oil is fine.

 

[greaseguy15]

If it’s an Arrow single cylinder engine they call for a 10W-40 for their C series. Really depends on who made the engine for what they’ll want in it. Do you have the make and model?

 

[userfriendly]

We'll head gas can be nasty, can have a lot of sulfur in it. Yeah modern off the shelf diesel oils are not made to deal with high sulfur levels like oil from the days when 500ppm was considered "low sulfur". You'll want that extra high TBN oil made for gas field engines.
If you know that gas field is low sulfur or will change the oil often then off the shelf diesel engine oil is fine.

Chevron Marine 1000 has a BN of 12 and is probably available in five gallon pails.
Their Taro series starts at 20BN and goes up to 50, but likely only available in 205L drums and larger.

 

[chilson450]

If it’s an Arrow single cylinder engine they call for a 10W-40 for their C series. Really depends on who made the engine for what they’ll want in it. Do you have the make and model?

It is an arrow c96. I also have an old Fairbanks that has a splash lube compared to the arrow pressurized lube system. I didn't know they called for 10w40. I have ran 15w40 in the past and it seemed to work fine. Just didn't know if I'd be better off with any readily available oil.

 

[greaseguy15]

They’re pretty simple little buggers so I’d think you’d be OK with a 15W-40 as well. They even recommend a straight 20 or 30W for “break-in”.

If you do really want something more specific to a natural gas engine you can find smaller packaging options for irrigation engines. I’ve seen 1 and 2 gallon package sizes for those in a 30 or 40 weight oil.

I am curious what do you have these engines doing in N MI? I haven’t seen these engines in the gas patch locally.

 

[chilson450]

They’re pretty simple little buggers so I’d think you’d be OK with a 15W-40 as well. They even recommend a straight 20 or 30W for “break-in”.

If you do really want something more specific to a natural gas engine you can find smaller packaging options for irrigation engines. I’ve seen 1 and 2 gallon package sizes for those in a 30 or 40 weight oil.

I am curious what do you have these engines doing in N MI? I haven’t seen these engines in the gas patch locally.

They are running some older oil well pump jacks.

 

[YB1111]

In my experience, you might want to ask at local truck repair shops—they often sell industrial oil in bulk by repackaging it.