CDI vs PI 3/8" Split Beam Decision

[wtd]

Send it to Snap-on
Send it to Angle Repair in West Virginia
Send it to Team Torque in North Dakota

Thanks.

 

[SubLGT]

........Norbar issues a UKAS certificate on their pro tools which is similar to NIST and also accepted. Stahlwille which is Germany's best has implemented DIN ISO17025:2018 at the production level for every TW and is accredited by DAkkS.

Norbar's calibration procedure seems to me to be more stringent than a NIST procedure.

Calibration Certificates

As a UKAS accredited calibration Laboratory No. 0256, Norbar is required to calibrate torque measuring devices that are within the Laboratory’s scope, in accordance with BS 7882:2017.

www.norbarusa.com

• 
  Before any calibration or recalibration the torque measuring device is preloaded three times in succession to the maximum applied torque of the device. Each preload is maintained for between 1 and 1 1/2 minutes to exercise the device and stabilise it in the calibration fixture.
• The device is calibrated with at least five approximately equal steps from 20% to 100% of maximum torque. Lower values are allowed as long as they meet certain criteria for resolution.
• For Classes 0.05 and 0.1, it is mandatory to calibrate the torque measuring device in four different mounting positions each rotated 90º about the measurement axis. For all other classes the device is calibrated at a minimum of two different mounting position at least 90º apart.
• Two series of readings are taken, and the device is then disturbed, generally by being disconnected from the calibration fixture and rotated through 90º. The device is then preloaded once to full scale. A third series of readings are then taken. This process is repeated until readings have been recorded in all required orientations.

 

[Trav]

They do. The serial number of the tested tool is on the attest. Some of the CDI do not even include that unless you pay extra for a certificate. Unless the TW includes a NIST, UKAS, DAkkS, JCSS certificate calibration was probably done on lower end equipment and the tools are accurate enough for general work, do not put a lot of value in these certificates. Stahlwille, Norbar and a few other incorporate high end equipment and standards during manufacture.

Norbar's calibration procedure seems to me to be more stringent than a NIST procedure.

Calibration Certificates

As a UKAS accredited calibration Laboratory No. 0256, Norbar is required to calibrate torque measuring devices that are within the Laboratory’s scope, in accordance with BS 7882:2017.

www.norbarusa.com

You can get NIST that are detailed and includes the K values also it depends on the TW manufacturer. The equipment to perform testing at this level is ungodly expensive and time consuming. Interesting reading for those interested. If you don't return to zero on clickers or drip them, get them wet, etc it is all in the bin. They should be treated like the precision instruments they are. Personally I have no problem with the certificate from PI, they are very good tools as are CDI.

(PDF) Uncertainty of Measurement in Torque Wrench Calibration

PDF | Torque wrenches (TW) are often considered and used as " tools " (such as screwdrivers and similar), rather than true measuring " instruments ".... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

https://www.norbar.com/Portals/0/BS7882%202008%20uncertainty%20paper%202.pdf

Edit: To answer you question about why don't they include it it doesnt much to print it out. TW in these price ranges are generally sold at DIY level, a lot of people would be returning them just looking for a better number. We see it here on the forum occasionally, some guy want to try before he buys. I have seen this at Sears a long time ago, guys opening the boxes looking for the one that had the lowest numbers. Some companies do include them that have multiple readings like HF on their $20 TW, these are not certified and meaningless.

 

[skeptastic]

PI. These split beam TW use simple internals which helps them maintain their accuracy over long time usage, there are no springs so there is no need set to zero after use, the setting can be left at any number. The quality of the steel is important for the longest life and CDI and PI are both high quality, I would not pay extra for a certificate unless you are required to have a NIST or other standard as required for some jobs. You can get a pretty good idea by checking it will a digital torque adapter, if it is questionable sent it out for calibration.
Norbar issues a UKAS certificate on their pro tools which is similar to NIST and also accepted. Stahlwille which is Germany's best has implemented DIN ISO17025:2018 at the production level for every TW and is accredited by DAkkS.

Any video of some guy pulling on the tool is almost worthless and should be taken as entertainment only, you can make any tool inaccurate just by how it is used.
The PI just has a simple certificate but it is traceable with the tools serial number and tested on NIST certified equipment. I have had it calibrated a few times and it was still well within specs. When I bought my CDI tools I didn't buy the certificate, I checked it with a digital torque adapter then after 6 mo I had it calibrated anyway. Do not get hung up on that.
View attachment 202940

This is Norbars UKAS certificate. 0.47% accuracy. I send this one back to Norbar occasionally, it is always less than 0.5%.

View attachment 202941

I really appreciate this Trav. I went ahead and ordered the PI last night, after coming to the conclusion that there's no way all of you knowledgable folks own PI's and they are out of spec haha. $143 for such a quality tool is a steal. And no need to get a 1/4" unit and an a 1/4-3/8 adapter since I only need to go down to 10 ft-lb and 10 ft-lb is within 20% of full range. Thanks again for snapping these photos and taking the time to reply.

 

[skeptastic]

One more question regarding the PI split beam TW. I see there is a version that is in in-lb, with PI listing it as having a range from 100-600 in-lb, and various sellers listing it as 120-600 in-lb. Of course, the 120-600 range would be the same as the 10-50 ft-lb version. But a version with 100-600 in-lb would have greater range (down to 8.33 ft-lb), and might be a better buy. Anyone with the C2FR600H version that can verify if it is 100-600 or 120-600 in-lb? Appreciate ya'll!

 

[Trav]

I don't know but I would guess the scale may go to 100 but if they claim accuracy at 20% of the range that would make it 120. Call them and ask.

 

[skeptastic]

I don't know but I would guess the scale may go to 100 but if they claim accuracy at 20% of the range that would make it 120. Call them and ask.

Yeah I thought about it and even if the in-lb unit does go down to 100 inches, the lowest setting within 20% of full scale would still be 120 inches, so no different than the 10-50 ft-lb unit.

 

[skeptastic]

@Trav Any reason you can think of why one might lean CDI over PI? I recognize that when it comes to the 1/4" micrometers, CDI seems to come up, while with split beams, it's PI and CDI.

 

[redbone3]

I have a 1/2" older Snap-on that probably needs to be calibrated. I bought it at a flea market. Not sure where to get that done.

Google for a calibration lab near you. Most any cal lab can do a torque wrench.

 

[wtd]

Google for a calibration lab near you. Most any cal lab can do a torque wrench.

Thanks, I will do that.

 

[SubLGT]

.....Anyone with the C2FR600H version that can verify if it is 100-600 or 120-600 in-lb? Appreciate ya'll!

Mine shows 100-600 on the dial. My sample did not meet the 4% accuracy spec when new. Error at 120 in-lb was +5.4%. After recalibration it is +0.99%

 

[skeptastic]

Mine shows 100-600 on the dial. My sample did not meet the 4% accuracy spec when new. Error at 120 in-lb was +5.4%. After recalibration it is +0.99%

Appreciate you!

 

[Trav]

What torque range are you looking to do with the tool?

Mine shows 100-600 on the dial. My sample did not meet the 4% accuracy spec when new. Error at 120 in-lb was +5.4%. After recalibration it is +0.99%

If that was correct I would have sent it back to PI to be recalibrated. As bad as 5.4% sounds it is only 0.54 lb.ft at 10 lb.ft 10.0 v 10.54 or 0.4 lb.ft out of the 4% spec.
Did you break it in before initially testing it? Was this certified testing equipment?

 

[skeptastic]

What torque range are you looking to do with the tool?

Were you asking me or someone else?

 

[Trav]

Were you asking me or someone else?

Asking you.

 

[skeptastic]

Asking you.

The 10-50 ft-lb is perfect, as I'll be working between 10 ft-lb and 30 ft-lb.

 

[SubLGT]

....If that was correct I would have sent it back to PI to be recalibrated. As bad as 5.4% sounds it is only 0.54 lb.ft at 10 lb.ft 10.0 v 10.54 or 0.4 lb.ft out of the 4% spec.
Did you break it in before initially testing it? Was this certified testing equipment?

I was past the 90 day warranty, so did not send it back to PI. Also, I only had a suspicion it was not in calibration, but no solid proof. I had around 40-50 cycles on it (some near the max of 600 in-lb) before sending it out to Team Torque in North Dakota for a calibration check. My near new PI 250 ft-lb split beam was even worse, it had an error of +12% at 50 ft-lb. Team Torque did a good job of recalibrating both wrenches, and got the maximum error down to +1.2% and +1.0% for the two wrenches.

Accredited Calibration Services | A2LA & ISO 17025 Certified | Team Torque Inc.

Learn how to get your torque tools calibrated and serviced by Team Torque! We take pride in our certified accreditation to ISO 17025 through A2LA.

www.teamtorque.com

 

[Trav]

The 10-50 ft-lb is perfect, as I'll be working between 10 ft-lb and 30 ft-lb.

For that range I would suggest the Norbar pro 50. This is without a doubt the nicest TW on the market.

A Couple of Nice Torque Wrenches

With more and more engines being made from all aluminum a good lower value and accurate torque wrench is almost a must have tool. We read about all the Icon and other brands that are in the $100 range, these tools have no replacement parts or service available for them. The first one here is a...

bobistheoilguy.com

Norbar 15002 Professional Torque Wrench - 10-50 Nm 3/8 Inch Drive TotalCycling.com

This updated Professional Torque Wrench has been re-engineered to be even more accurate, durable and easy to use. The square drive features a finger grip on the top ('mushroom' head) that assists with running down the nut until resistance is m .... £157.55.Free P & P.

www.totalcycling.com

That one is a mushroom head which is fine, this one is the same tool with a reversible Facom ratchet head, not worth the extra money IMO.

Amazon.com

 

[skeptastic]

For that range I would suggest the Norbar pro 50. This is without a doubt the nicest TW on the market.

A Couple of Nice Torque Wrenches

With more and more engines being made from all aluminum a good lower value and accurate torque wrench is almost a must have tool. We read about all the Icon and other brands that are in the $100 range, these tools have no replacement parts or service available for them. The first one here is a...

bobistheoilguy.com

Norbar 15002 Professional Torque Wrench - 10-50 Nm 3/8 Inch Drive TotalCycling.com

This updated Professional Torque Wrench has been re-engineered to be even more accurate, durable and easy to use. The square drive features a finger grip on the top ('mushroom' head) that assists with running down the nut until resistance is m .... £157.55.Free P & P.

www.totalcycling.com

That one is a mushroom head which is fine, this one is the same tool with a reversible Facom ratchet head, not worth the extra money IMO.

Amazon.com

Is this a micrometer style? I thought the consensus was that these half their calibration for a much shorter duration and split beams were preferable? I feel like I've been sold on the split beam idea for so long that I can't fathom paying so much for a micrometer TW. Can you help me understand why this is the nicest on the market? Would it not be better to get a 10-50 ft-lb split beam in case I expand and need to work closer to 50 ft-lb, especially with the longevity of calibration for the split beams?

Sorry for all the questions. I'll wait to hear from you. I did cancel my PI split beam order, as I realized I needed to learn more to ensure I'm choosing the right tool for my application. I appreciate your help so much.

 

[SubLGT]

A Norbar micrometer style torque wrench will be good for at least 5000 cycles under favorable conditions before a calibration check is recommended.

https://www.norbarusa.com/Portals/0/Calibration%20Period%20for%20ISO%206789%202017.pdf

In test conditions, the torque wrench should remain within the tolerances laid down by BS EN ISO 6789:2017 for at least 5,000 cycles. In practice, this may be reduced by ingress of dust, causing wear; or by damage caused by using the tool to loosen fasteners or being dropped regularly.