Castrol Australia's take on the issue with Zddp

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FCD

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Found on a VW forum , worthwhile reading Neil McTavish – Australian Automotive Technology Manager Castrol Recently we have received questions relating to wear performance on flat tappet cams. My comments in this article are about flat (sliding) tappets, not roller followers. Firstly let me remind people, this is Australia, not the USA. I have read a number of articles where the information clearly comes from the USA but you are left with the impression that it is written about Australia. The internet can be misleading. I have been in the technical area of lubricants in Australia for more than 30 years. So I am familiar with engine oil formulations since the early 1970’s and have seen a lot of information on oil formulations back into the 1950’s. Although Castrol is sold in more than 100 countries around the world, products and the range of products are not the same in all countries. There are two main industry oil qualification systems. These are API/ILSAC from USA, and ACEA from Europe. Both of these systems are developed jointly between the oil industry and vehicle manufacturers. The updates reflect the latest requirements for standard vehicles and applications. The biggest influence most recently is the “Tier 2” emission regulations in the USA and Euro 4 in Europe. These regulations do not come into place for petrol engines in Australia until between July 2008 and July 2010.  The US petrol classifications have two types, ILSAC grades for GF-3, GF-4 etc. are; SAE 0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-30, 0w-20, 5w-20. And the rest, are not ILSAC. The ILSAC requirements require improved fuel efficiency and have chemical limits on Phosphorus and Sulphur.  API performance qualifications started at SB in the 1930s, currently the highest API petrol engine specification is SM. ACEA specifications are A1/B1, A3/B3, A3/B4 and A5/B5. ACEA C1, C2 and C3 are newer low Phosphorus specifications. The Phosphorus is limited to help maximise the life of catalytic converters.  The main reason Phosphorus is added to engine oil is for cam and tappet wear protection. The most widely used form of Phosphorus in engine oils is in an organometallic molecule. The material is Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, ZDDP, ZDTP or ZDP for short. Useful molecules that include Sulphur and Phosphorus, they perform most of the antiwear protection on steel surfaces. The most recent API SM/ILSAC GF-4 grades have reduced the maximum allowable Phosphorus content to 0.08% (800 PPM, Parts per Million), down from 0.10%, 1000 PPM. The 0.10% limit has been in place for approx. 15 years in the USA and since 1986 in Australia.  Yes most petrol engine oils for more than 20 years in Australia have been 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. That was as a result of an agreement between the car industry and the oil industry in Australia. However most oils from the 1950’s and 60’s had lower Phosphorus content than even the latest passenger car engine oils, i.e. it was typically 0.06% which is even lower than the 0.08% limit set by API SM. ZDDP is a multifunctional additive; it has powerful antioxidant effect in addition to the antiwear characteristics. The size and type of the alkyl group attached to the Thio phosphate within the molecule influences the relative antiwear antioxidant balance of ZDDP additive. Over time Castrol have used modified ZDDP’s that are more intended for wear performance and substituted other materials to boost antioxidant performance of our engine oils. So looking at Zinc and/or Phosphorus levels alone does not tell the full story in terms of wear protection. The majority of the Castrol passenger car lubricants sold in Australia are ACEA qualified as well as API qualified. The ACEA requires extra valve train wear, VTW, tests over and above API requirements. In addition most of Castrol ACEA qualified products are 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. The same as we have used for 20 years or more. So that is why some of our ACEA qualified oils only claim API SL even though they pass all API SM engine performance requirements, the Phosphorus content is above the maximum level allowed for ILSAC grades. There has been discussion about using diesel engine oils instead of passenger car engine oils. Some of these do currently contain higher levels of Phosphorus, ZDDP, than passenger car qualified to API SL or SM. They have higher Phosphorus to help minimise soot related wear. Future generations of these oils will also have Phosphorus limits and be lower over time for the same reasons as for passenger car engine oils. The higher level of Phosphorus is not a guarantee of satisfactory wear protection. As I said earlier, wear performance is related to the particular ZDDP being used. Also many of the diesel oils with higher Phosphorus also contain higher levels of detergent and dispersant which compete for surface area with the ZDDP.This can reduce its effectiveness when used in a petrol engine. During the development of the current API SM engine tests, a high phosphorus diesel engine oil was run in a flat tappet, push rod engine test and it failed the wear requirements with worse results than most low Phosphorus passenger car oils. In Australia we have many people rebuilding older vehicles and engines. Many of these people choose to put a modified cam into the engine when it is rebuilt. That is often the case even though they do not plan to get involved with Motorsport and the engine spends most of it life at low RPM. Modified cams with higher lift often require stronger or dual valve springs. All of these modifications increase load on the valve train and increase the likelihood of wear on cams and tappets.  The first few minutes of operation for new cam and tappets are very important. Run-in is important for good long service life. Castrol have put considerable effort into understanding valve train lubrication. Research has shown one of the highest if not highest wear mode for a cam and tappets is while the engine is at idle. Running an engine at medium speed, say 2,000 to 4,000 rpm generates much less metal-to-metal contact between cam and tappet than at engine idle. Also ZDDP is temperature activated so running the engine at low oil temperature also accelerates cam and tappet wear. In summary most of the Castrol passenger car engine oils sold in Australia are still formulated to 0.10% Phosphorus maximum, the same as we have had for the last 20 years but higher than was used in the 50’s and 60’s. When running in new cams and tappets avoid idling as much as possible in the first 30 minutes to hour of operation. Make sure the cam and tappets are prelubed with Moly grease and oil. Try to keep engine oil temperature above 80°C. Driving the vehicle or running the engine under load achieves that most quickly. Following a rebuild, the cam and tappets should be run-in by 250 to 500 km.  Castrol Edge Sport 25w-50, previously Formula R 25w-50 and before that GP50, is specifically part of our performance range of engine oils for push rod, flat tappet engines. It has demonstrated excellent wear protection on radical cam profiles. Although rated API SG it incorporates the latest detergents and dispersants for good engine cleanliness, contains 0.10% Phosphorus and retains components for strong wear protection. This off-the-shelf product is widely used in competition engines. If a full synthetic engine oil is preferred then our Castrol Edge 0W-40 or Edge Sport 10W-60 is recommended. Again these are formulated to 0.10% Phosphorus maximum and can be used with flat tappet followers with confidence the same as Edge Sport 25W-50. Rob's notes. You will note that most Castrol oils sold in Australia have reasonably high levels of ZDDP for protection of the flat tappets. Diesel oils are not recommended for use in (older) petrol engines, even though they usually have higher levels of ZDDP. You will note that Neil's comments above reinforce the common advice when starting a rebuilt engine for the first time - the VW wisdom is that you should run it straight up to 2500rpm and hold it there for 15 mintues at least - do NOT idle the engine. This is specifically so the flat tappets wear in correctly. Last edited by aussiebug on Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Not sure I'd agree about the 'different types of ZDDP' thing. Yes they vary a bit (primary, secondary, mixed primary/secondary) but ZDDP is much the same today as it was when they first patented it in the 1940's.
 
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Interesting. It's a dated article however I'm optimistic that some of our more industry oriented members or tribs will chime in with updated thoughts, trends and findings. My take is that SL oils then and now are still solid products to meet a lot of needs. I suspect that even though it's SL rated, it meets the performance specs of SN, such as Redline 5w-30 or GC/BC, to name a couple.
 

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Yeah i didn't really undrestand the part about that diesel oils use a different type of zddp, i mean Shell Rotella has been shown to work very well in ft cam classic muscle cars and motorcycles despite being aimed clearly at the diesel crowd . i was thinking of maybe trying out Shell Rimula R4X 15w40 at some point since it's SL rated but not so sure now?
 
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Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Yeah i didn't really undrestand the part about that diesel oils use a different type of zddp, i mean Shell Rotella has been shown to work very well in ft cam classic muscle cars and motorcycles despite being aimed clearly at the diesel crowd . i was thinking of maybe trying out Shell Rimula R4X 15w40 at some point since it's SL rated but not so sure now?
Personally for the Capri, I might steer clear of HDD oils. Yes they're SL rated but they probably contain and unheathily high level of ashless dispersant for some of the seals in an old engine. Stick to a simpler PCMO, the sort the car was designed for. Still reckon that 20W50 VR1 fitted the bill even if it was on the pricy side.
 

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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Not sure I'd agree about the 'different types of ZDDP' thing. Yes they vary a bit (primary, secondary, mixed primary/secondary) but ZDDP is much the same today as it was when they first patented it in the 1940's.
Yes, that is the bit that always caught my eye (I have read and posted the article here previously). Thanks for giving your input SoJ, since many people have used HDEO without problems. I've often heard that Oz Castrol Edge has ~1000ppm Zn in it. Due to the different Phos limits for ILSAC and non-ILSAC grades, this makes Edge 0W-40 & 5W-40 & 10W-60 all API SN (plus A3/B4, etc), but Edge 5W-30 A3/B4 is API SL (plus A3/B4, BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, etc). Oz Castrol point out on their spec sheet, that it passes all the tests requirements of API SN, but it's rated SL due to it's higher Phos/Zn content. I have no problem with that. Note to North American readers, our Edge 5W-30 is A3/B4 (HTHS = 3.6, KV100 = 12.0, TBN = 10.2) and not the ILSAC 5W-30 you guys mostly see, but you can get the A3/B4 stuff as Garak has spotted it in the wild.
 
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Yeah i didn't really undrestand the part about that diesel oils use a different type of zddp, i mean Shell Rotella has been shown to work very well in ft cam classic muscle cars and motorcycles despite being aimed clearly at the diesel crowd . i was thinking of maybe trying out Shell Rimula R4X 15w40 at some point since it's SL rated but not so sure now?
Personally for the Capri, I might steer clear of HDD oils. Yes they're SL rated but they probably contain and unheathily high level of ashless dispersant for some of the seals in an old engine. Stick to a simpler PCMO, the sort the car was designed for. Still reckon that 20W50 VR1 fitted the bill even if it was on the pricy side.
I'm a convert to VR-1 20W-50 for my flat tappet(s). I know part of the point of this post is that oils can vary by continent, but the VR-1 20W-50 has around 1200 ppm Zn/P as per a recent virgin oil analysis posted here. Despite being a "racing" oil, the TBN is high enough that it's safe to use as a street oil for several months/several thousand miles and doesn't have to be drained every week smile . The last case I bought(6 quarts) was $30. It's pricier than a lot of conventional oils, but still cheaper than some of the other high zinc oils on the market(which are almost all 20W-50). John Twist, who is probably the top MG mechanic in the world, only uses Brad Penn in his shop but I've not been able to discern what advantage it carries over VR-1 and is about $1/quart more. One of the other high zinc oils on the market is Amsoil, but price wise it doesn't even enter into the equation at $10+/quart.
 
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I've used the 25W-50 in my Airhead before...maybe I should go back to it, but it never seems to be on sale.
 
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