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It's just sorta like the distinction between nude and naked. One is unclad ..the other implies unprotected. "Recycled" is often a misnomer for "properly disposed of".
Can you tell if your "new" oil is recycled oil?
- Thread starter SpitfireS
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Good distinction. Recycle means the producer of used oil properly conveys the used oil to a facility that will reuse the oil in some manner (this could be for heating fuel or for recycling). I use an O'reily auto parts that uses Safety Kleen reclamation services. I feel good about this location because I know my oil is destined to be re-refined.
Here is a random oil recycling fact to all of those who claim they would never use recycled oil.
Up here where I work due to the isolation and the cold environment they used to use the used oil for heating but to be honest we care about emissions and we were producing more waste than could be effieciently burned in the vehicle maintenance shops.
It was decided that this used oil could be placed back into the production stream of crude oil and sent down the line as crude and we could classify the waste stream as recycled. It really is not that much used oil when you consider we are in the hundreds of thousands of barrels a day production, but it is a clean responsible way to eliminate the waste stream and put it back to use.
Since Alaska Crude is sold on the commodities market.. anyone could somehow be using our recycled engine oils from the fleet in their vehicle
.
Here is a random oil recycling fact to all of those who claim they would never use recycled oil.
Up here where I work due to the isolation and the cold environment they used to use the used oil for heating but to be honest we care about emissions and we were producing more waste than could be effieciently burned in the vehicle maintenance shops.
It was decided that this used oil could be placed back into the production stream of crude oil and sent down the line as crude and we could classify the waste stream as recycled. It really is not that much used oil when you consider we are in the hundreds of thousands of barrels a day production, but it is a clean responsible way to eliminate the waste stream and put it back to use.
Since Alaska Crude is sold on the commodities market.. anyone could somehow be using our recycled engine oils from the fleet in their vehicle
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Hmmm ..I hear Highwayman cuing up in the background.
Thank You!! That's good music and appropriate.
True, I'd imagine crude worth more and is dirtier than used motor oil. If what people said about 65c per gal of used oil being cleaner and cheaper than crude, cost less to refine, I'd image those re-refined base stock will be the first choice to be blend into new motor oil, without the need to label or brag about it.
The 10W-40 I bought was cheap, compared to European prices.
It was 2.25 Euro / liter.
After reading all replys it most likely is GRPII/III dino oil.
Because it meets the specs I mentioned I thought: what if they know the origin of the used oil, re-refine it and sell it labelled meeting the specs of the used oil?
I don't see an unknown brand (no website...) paying $$$$$ to get their oil tested by ACEA, VW and MB.
I've been reading around about re-refine base oils and most claim that base oils don't "wear out and can be reused over and over again"
What about mechanical shear?
Wouldn't re-refined base oils be at the thin side of the SAE spec?
20 weights?
Thanks for all the replys.
It was 2.25 Euro / liter.
After reading all replys it most likely is GRPII/III dino oil.
Because it meets the specs I mentioned I thought: what if they know the origin of the used oil, re-refine it and sell it labelled meeting the specs of the used oil?
I don't see an unknown brand (no website...) paying $$$$$ to get their oil tested by ACEA, VW and MB.
I've been reading around about re-refine base oils and most claim that base oils don't "wear out and can be reused over and over again"
What about mechanical shear?
Wouldn't re-refined base oils be at the thin side of the SAE spec?
20 weights?
Thanks for all the replys.
Gary
Do us all a favor and stay away from the dictionary.
Steve
PS Thanks for the help on ordering yesterday
Do us all a favor and stay away from the dictionary.
Steve
PS Thanks for the help on ordering yesterday
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: Max_Wander
What is that smell anyway? Is it dithiocarbamide or some other sulphuric additive? or is it sulphur left in the oil from refining?
No idea. But SOPUS makes very good performing products.
Quote:
After reading all replys it most likely is GRPII/III dino oil.
The vast majority of syn-blends in Europe will be Grp I/III or GrpI/IV (with the Grp I likely being a I+). The vast majority of the conventional oils in Europe are Grp I/I+ based. There is very little Group II in Europe as they have almost no Grp II production there.
What is that smell anyway? Is it dithiocarbamide or some other sulphuric additive? or is it sulphur left in the oil from refining?
No idea. But SOPUS makes very good performing products.
Quote:
After reading all replys it most likely is GRPII/III dino oil.
The vast majority of syn-blends in Europe will be Grp I/III or GrpI/IV (with the Grp I likely being a I+). The vast majority of the conventional oils in Europe are Grp I/I+ based. There is very little Group II in Europe as they have almost no Grp II production there.
A few thoughts on re-refined oils (here in the North American market).
I'll say I'm leery on re-refined Group II base oils. The Group II re-refined base oil specifications just don't look that good. The petrotex… Group II+ re-refined base oil is listed as 90-94% saturates. Lets use the middle of that range, say 92% saturates. This is a base oil with ~ 8% aromatics. A Group II with 7-8% aromatics has half the thermal/oxidative stability of a Group II with 1% aromatics. Petro-Canada's Group II's are >99% saturates (at less than 1% aromatics, aromatics are no longer the significant factor to stability). From the Kramer article …
Quote:
Chevron.pdf…
In short, with 500N the oxidation rate doubled when the wt% aromatic molecules increased from 1% to 8.5%. With 100N it doubled when the wt% aromatic molecules increased from 1 wt% to 6.3 wt%.
The key assumption that the Group II aromatics are highly reactive in nature and oxidize quickly relative to the majority of saturates is also consistent with our finding that these compounds are aromatic naphthenes.
One really wants the aromatics in a GII down around 1-2% or lower.
The problem is that most, if not all, of the recycling facilities (N.A.) only have mild hydrotreators, and not a severe hydrocracker (a more severe form of hydrotreating as Kramer calls it). Without these more severe hydrotreators, re-refiners have limited ability to upgrade the used oils. When the used oil comes in, it is a mix of Group I, II and a small amount of Group III, IV, V from various sources. A hydrotreator that is not severe enough to break down and saturate the vast majority of the aromatics (no significant cracking and reforming of the molecules), leaves the aromatic content in the used oil (whatever it happens to be) relatively unchanged. In other words, the re-refiners hydrotreators can't reach high enough temperature/pressure to reform the molecules. While these re-refiners can claim it's an API Group II oil because it may meet the minimum spec's (>90% saturates), the saturate content they are listing on their sites indicates it is not near as good as the Group II base oils from the major refineries.
Safety Kleen re-refiners only lists the minimum specifications for their GII base oils (saturates > 90%). I don't know how they make their GII's. Perhaps if the oil is not > 90% saturates, they buy a GII from a major refinery and blend it with their oil to just meet the GII spec's. Or, maybe they try to be very selective on where the recycled oils come from, trying to use as much recycled GII as possible. Evergreen may have one plant in California with a severe enough hydrotreator to produce quality GII oils, but I'm quite sure Safety Kleen currently doesn't have any plants that can do this.
When petrotex states:
Quote:
"Extensive laboratory testing and field studies conducted by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the US Army, the US Department of Energy, the US Postal Service and the EPA concluded: re-refined oil is equivalent to virgin oil, passes all prescribed tests, and can even outperform virgin oil."
… they are being somewhat misleading here (just marketing), as this refers only to their GI based products. Again, the spec's listed indicate their GII base oils aren’t as good as those coming out of the major refineries, even though they may meet the minimum specifications for GII.
Here in North America we use GII/II+ base oils in almost all our motor oils. So most of the used motor oils coming in for recycling will have a very high saturate content because of the high content of GII. It’s like mixing GII and GI base oils to get a GI+. So, on the upside, if one is looking for a Group I base oil, the re-refiners GI will be among the best -- being really a GI+ base oil. The re-refiners produce very good GI/I+ oils because of the high paraffinic (saturate) content of much of the used oil that is GII coming in for re-refining.
Most of the re-refined oil that finds its way into motor oils would probably be used in the 10W-30's, as the base oil requirements are not as severe as the GII+ requirement for 5W-30's. They could probably blend a small amount (~15%) of re-refined oil with new GII+ base oil for a 5W-30, but the amount would probably be quite limited.
If I'm looking for a GI oil, the re-refiners would be one of my first choices. GII, I'd pass unless they can come up with better specifications that show their re-refined GII/II+ oils are as good as those coming from the major refineries.
I'll say I'm leery on re-refined Group II base oils. The Group II re-refined base oil specifications just don't look that good. The petrotex… Group II+ re-refined base oil is listed as 90-94% saturates. Lets use the middle of that range, say 92% saturates. This is a base oil with ~ 8% aromatics. A Group II with 7-8% aromatics has half the thermal/oxidative stability of a Group II with 1% aromatics. Petro-Canada's Group II's are >99% saturates (at less than 1% aromatics, aromatics are no longer the significant factor to stability). From the Kramer article …
Quote:
Chevron.pdf…
In short, with 500N the oxidation rate doubled when the wt% aromatic molecules increased from 1% to 8.5%. With 100N it doubled when the wt% aromatic molecules increased from 1 wt% to 6.3 wt%.
The key assumption that the Group II aromatics are highly reactive in nature and oxidize quickly relative to the majority of saturates is also consistent with our finding that these compounds are aromatic naphthenes.
One really wants the aromatics in a GII down around 1-2% or lower.
The problem is that most, if not all, of the recycling facilities (N.A.) only have mild hydrotreators, and not a severe hydrocracker (a more severe form of hydrotreating as Kramer calls it). Without these more severe hydrotreators, re-refiners have limited ability to upgrade the used oils. When the used oil comes in, it is a mix of Group I, II and a small amount of Group III, IV, V from various sources. A hydrotreator that is not severe enough to break down and saturate the vast majority of the aromatics (no significant cracking and reforming of the molecules), leaves the aromatic content in the used oil (whatever it happens to be) relatively unchanged. In other words, the re-refiners hydrotreators can't reach high enough temperature/pressure to reform the molecules. While these re-refiners can claim it's an API Group II oil because it may meet the minimum spec's (>90% saturates), the saturate content they are listing on their sites indicates it is not near as good as the Group II base oils from the major refineries.
Safety Kleen re-refiners only lists the minimum specifications for their GII base oils (saturates > 90%). I don't know how they make their GII's. Perhaps if the oil is not > 90% saturates, they buy a GII from a major refinery and blend it with their oil to just meet the GII spec's. Or, maybe they try to be very selective on where the recycled oils come from, trying to use as much recycled GII as possible. Evergreen may have one plant in California with a severe enough hydrotreator to produce quality GII oils, but I'm quite sure Safety Kleen currently doesn't have any plants that can do this.
When petrotex states:
Quote:
"Extensive laboratory testing and field studies conducted by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the US Army, the US Department of Energy, the US Postal Service and the EPA concluded: re-refined oil is equivalent to virgin oil, passes all prescribed tests, and can even outperform virgin oil."
… they are being somewhat misleading here (just marketing), as this refers only to their GI based products. Again, the spec's listed indicate their GII base oils aren’t as good as those coming out of the major refineries, even though they may meet the minimum specifications for GII.
Here in North America we use GII/II+ base oils in almost all our motor oils. So most of the used motor oils coming in for recycling will have a very high saturate content because of the high content of GII. It’s like mixing GII and GI base oils to get a GI+. So, on the upside, if one is looking for a Group I base oil, the re-refiners GI will be among the best -- being really a GI+ base oil. The re-refiners produce very good GI/I+ oils because of the high paraffinic (saturate) content of much of the used oil that is GII coming in for re-refining.
Most of the re-refined oil that finds its way into motor oils would probably be used in the 10W-30's, as the base oil requirements are not as severe as the GII+ requirement for 5W-30's. They could probably blend a small amount (~15%) of re-refined oil with new GII+ base oil for a 5W-30, but the amount would probably be quite limited.
If I'm looking for a GI oil, the re-refiners would be one of my first choices. GII, I'd pass unless they can come up with better specifications that show their re-refined GII/II+ oils are as good as those coming from the major refineries.
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