Can you cause any damage with those ground wire kits

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quote:

Originally posted by fixitfox33:
I personally don't have any problem sticking on another good ground to make the workanisms perform properly, but not to try for some magical power surge. Especially in areas where road salt corrosion may be causing ground integrity concerns.

Yep...upgrading your electrical system can be pretty beneficial, especially if your vehicle is more than a couple years old...just not for HP gains. The battery and alternator cables on my Jeep would be overkill for a Freightliner...but my headlights are brighter, it turns over faster, and my voltage gauge is allways higher.
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Hmm...so I should rewire all the grounds and the battery cable to the alternator with say, 4 gauge cable? I'll need a 50w solder gun to solder the connectors on.....heh
 
quote:

Originally posted by ChrisW:
Hmm...so I should rewire all the grounds and the battery cable to the alternator with say, 4 gauge cable? I'll need a 50w solder gun to solder the connectors on.....heh

4 gauge is probably pretty close to stock for battery cables, I used 2/0 welding cable.
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quote:

Originally posted by ZmOz:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisW:
Hmm...so I should rewire all the grounds and the battery cable to the alternator with say, 4 gauge cable? I'll need a 50w solder gun to solder the connectors on.....heh

4 gauge is probably pretty close to stock for battery cables, I used 2/0 welding cable.
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I just love the nice flexable solid copper welding cables.
Have you ever tried to jump start a cold Mack truck with some 4 gauge "Deluxe" Wal Mart special jumper cables??
About six strands of wire, wrapped in about 1/2 inch of pretty yellow rubber?
They actually stiffen up, and try to straighten out, just before the heat starts them smoking.

The welding cable makes great jumper cables, and it will handle all the loads your average High compression V8 can dish out.

Makes good replacement battery cables
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also.
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Copper minimizing must be a priority of concern for new car Mfrs. It seems wiring under the hood keeps getting smaller and smaller in diameter as the years go by. German cars in particular, have marginal ground wires.
 
About 25 years ago when I was making my living mostly by supplying wire to the automotive industry, the average car used 2000 feet of wire, as much as a house. That was about when the computer controlled ignition and EFI were coming in, before ABS. Copper is heavy and expensive.

They certainly did not use excessive amounts in the starter of my Ecotec. I have seen lawn mowers with bigger ones.

[ November 09, 2004, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: labman ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by fixitfox33:
I agree with the BS!!!
However, if your intank fuel pump ground wire had enough corrosion/resistance etc. to provide say only about 10 volts to the pump, the pressure would be lower, and an upgraded ground there could sure increase,(Actually not increase, but rather RESTORE) some horsepower.
Kinda nit-picky don't you think?


In that case I would expect that the long-term fuel trims would be positive by quite a few percent (meaning that the computer is adding that much more injector pulsewidth over the programmed baseline).

If I recall correctly, the check engine light comes on at -25% or +25% long term fuel trim.

Contrary to popular belief, the long term fuel trims ARE applied at wide-open-throttle operation. Just because the computer is open loop doesn't mean it's not applying what it learned in closed-loop operation.

I would guess that if the voltage to your fuel pump were low enough to decrease horsepower, your check engine light is already on.
 
quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:

quote:

Originally posted by fixitfox33:
I agree with the BS!!!
However, if your intank fuel pump ground wire had enough corrosion/resistance etc. to provide say only about 10 volts to the pump, the pressure would be lower, and an upgraded ground there could sure increase,(Actually not increase, but rather RESTORE) some horsepower.
Kinda nit-picky don't you think?


In that case I would expect that the long-term fuel trims would be positive by quite a few percent (meaning that the computer is adding that much more injector pulsewidth over the programmed baseline).

If I recall correctly, the check engine light comes on at -25% or +25% long term fuel trim.

Contrary to popular belief, the long term fuel trims ARE applied at wide-open-throttle operation. Just because the computer is open loop doesn't mean it's not applying what it learned in closed-loop operation.

I would guess that if the voltage to your fuel pump were low enough to decrease horsepower, your check engine light is already on.


I didn't say the voltage was low. I said if the GROUND wire from the pump to the frame was corroded, causing enough resistance in that circuit to only carry about 10 volts....
That would cause the fuel pump to run slower, due to the poor, although not non-existant ground. That would only affect the pump...no low system voltage. Kinda like wiring a rheostat in the ground wire, and adding resistence. The pump will run slower, till you add enough to where it won't run at all.
And unless there is a new sensor for Low Fuel Pressure, (which I haven't seen, but would be a good idea), there is no code set, thus no light.
That is, no light due to the fuel pump ground. I don't disagree with you about the trim, and possible light because of that.
The main discussion was about grounds, and could a better ground add power.
That specific ground needs to be good, and if it isn't, then improving IT would defanitely restore power, therefore it meets the criteria, improving ground add power.
But if the orriginal ground is as good as new, adding another ground there should have absolutely no effect.
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[ November 11, 2004, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: fixitfox33 ]
 
Yes, the voltage IS low, because 10 volts IS lower than 12. Increased resistance in the fuel pump's ground WILL result in low voltage across the pump. In fact, it doesn't matter whether the increased resistance is on the ground side or the 12V side of the pump--the effect is the same, reduced voltage across the pump.

No, there is no fuel pressure sensor (on many cars, though I believe that the returnless fuel systems do have one), but indirectly, the oxygen sensor can sense the lean condition that low fuel pressure is causing and the computer will compensate by increasing the fuel injector duty cycle until the air/fuel ratio is where it's supposed to be. If these compensations exceed a preset value, as I said, the check engine light will come on with a code.

The code won't specifically tell you that the fuel pump is at fault. It will tell you that the computer has detected a lean condition that it cannot compensate for. It is up to the mechanic to figure out what is causing the lean condition, but checking the fuel pressure is part of the diagnostics for that condition.
 
quote:

Originally posted by crossbow:
On the mazda6 there is an extremely poor ground to the electronic throttlebody. It sits between two pieces of plastic, and its only ground to the engine is a tiny wire in the harness, which travels quite a distance before actually finally being grounded.

Some individuals found that by attaching a small gauge wire directly to the throttlebody, it properly grounded the the TB and in many cases, resulted in better (noticable) throttle response.

With almost every component on a car now controlled through electrical means, and manufacturers looking for any possible way to save money, I could definitely see a case in some cars where some stock grounds are just not sufficent...especially if the car's being upgraded with various aftermarket equipment.


So Brian, and Crossbow...sounds to me like we are all in agreement.

According to the questioners orriginal question, we are not talking about some magical power increase to a vehicle with all good connections.
We are actually agreeing that ground integrity, or actually connection integrity, is a must for all systems to operate properly.
Normally, CLEANING a ground, or whatever is required to Restore it to orriginal, just brings any connection related shortcomings up to normal, rather than finding some "Holy Grail" of power, to add to what the manufacturer designed into the orriginal system.

If adding a ground improves the performance of an engine that is in new condition, which I doubt can happen, then it would be from some assembly problem where a ground was left off accidentally, and I would think that scenario would be one in a million, or so, and not the norm.

I am not a proponent of the "add-on power producing ground kits". I am a proponent of using test results incorporated with a good understanding of the systems and principles of operation to isolate, locate, and repair specific problems, not just throw money away on gimmicks hoping for a miracle.
I just happened to pull a situation out of past history that applied to the orriginal discussion.

So...getting back to the orriginal topic, "Can you cause any damage...etc", I would say if PROPERLY installed, No, it won't cause any damage.
But to continue the question, although I don't remember if he actually asked, even if it was discussed, "Will it give you a magical umpteen horsepower increase from an engine", I say NO, probably not a bit, unless it accidentally corrects a problem like mentioned above. But don't expect it to happen.
 
Bad ground connections do happen on assembly. When my 81 Phoenix was new, the wipers would take a swipe every time I hit a bump. Did the dealer find and fix the problem? I tore apart the steering column a couple of times trying to find the problem. Finally after a couple of years, while working on something else, I discovered a ground wire screw under the edge of the dashboard that was loose. Tightening it fixed the wiper problem. I did not notice any other improvement.
 
Well I originally asked the question, I understand that it does not create any hp, if their is a bad connection it it will correct it. I also believe that the factory can send a vehicle out with poor grounding. I was looking under the hood of my new tacoma a few months after I purchased it, and noticed the ground to the engine block just hanging there, it wasnt connected to anything! So I thought if they did that what else did they forget to ground?
but thanks for the posts
 
On the mazda6 there is an extremely poor ground to the electronic throttlebody. It sits between two pieces of plastic, and its only ground to the engine is a tiny wire in the harness, which travels quite a distance before actually finally being grounded.

Some individuals found that by attaching a small gauge wire directly to the throttlebody, it properly grounded the the TB and in many cases, resulted in better (noticable) throttle response.

With almost every component on a car now controlled through electrical means, and manufacturers looking for any possible way to save money, I could definitely see a case in some cars where some stock grounds are just not sufficent...especially if the car's being upgraded with various aftermarket equipment.
 
quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:
Originally posted by fixitfox33:Contrary to popular belief, the long term fuel trims ARE applied at wide-open-throttle operation. Just because the computer is open loop doesn't mean it's not applying what it learned in closed-loop operation.
Are you sure that applies to call cars? I was always wondering this myself... because I use a piggy back device to trim full throttle maps, and was wondering that if I reset my ECU, will it still use exactly the same mapping...
 
I think the only real problem with grounding kits is when people go a bit "overboard".

The general "upgrade" path is attacking the three main grounds.

1. Battery Ground
2. Engine Block Ground
3. Alternator Ground

(Info from PhatalOne)

Normally these three have the greatest effects on the car's overall electrical system, and the stock grounds may/may not be sufficent to handle an upgraded electrical system. (Aka more power through the car, either through performance mods, stereo, lighting, or other such upgrades).

Its when you pop a hood and see a spiderweb of thousands of wires everywhere that things have gone a bit too far.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Leo:
Are you sure that applies to call cars? I was always wondering this myself... because I use a piggy back device to trim full throttle maps, and was wondering that if I reset my ECU, will it still use exactly the same mapping...

Well you can check it youself---plug in a scantool, watch the long-term fuel trim PID, and floor it.

The long term fuel trim PID will probably NOT be zero at that point which is an indication that it is applying the corrections to WOT operation.
 
Ah ok. You see downunder, none of our cars are OBD II. So we cant use the scantool like you guys can =(

So it makes me wonder. But I think you're right! Thanks for the info.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Leo:
Ah ok. You see downunder, none of our cars are OBD II. So we cant use the scantool like you guys can =(

So it makes me wonder. But I think you're right! Thanks for the info.


Did you look on the other side of the car for the OBD II connector...you know, the side where the steering wheel really belongs
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More seriously, is OBD II only a North American thing? What do you get in Oz on Japanese vehicles that are sold in both our countries??
 
Our ECU's have connectors to access some simple functions near the kick panel, but each car is different. Some cars use OBD II style connectors, but you cant use OBD access tools like you guys do, especially on older cars because there is no law here stating OBD II is a legal requirement. Some cars have it, but most cars dont...

[ November 17, 2004, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Leo ]
 
That's really interesting, becauase on most newer vehicles, the OBD-II port isn't just a place to access trouble codes--it's a direct connection to the vehicle's databus that it's various modules use to communicate.

On some newer vehicles, the car stereo and the CD changer use this to databus communicate to each other, as well as the dashboard and the ECU (so that the dashboard can obtain and display readings from the ECU that the ECU is getting from it's sensors, such as coolant temperature).

Ford uses the EEC-V ECU in Australia just as they do in the USA, and I would be surprised if the EEC-V ECU used in Australia didn't support OBD-II trouble codes/operational data using the SAE J1850 PWM protocol just like what Ford uses in the USA.

Maybe the diagnostic connector isn't an OBD-II connector, but the electrical signalling and data layers are most likely the same.

There is also an ISO9141 protocol which is an European OBD-II protocol, so apparently OBD-II also exists in Europe.
 
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