i was a diesel mechanic for 14 years and i can tell you back in the hayday of delvac 1 there was more valvetrain wear with delvac 1 vs delo or even rotella. i know this from adjusting valves and changing crossheads on cummings engines. take your worst engine(for wear) and run group III. i think you mechanics will like the results. and as far as excessive idleing. hogwash.
cam wear with synthetics?
- Thread starter JBJ
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Eddyzima,
I see low iron wear with ALL the grades of Amsoil - everything from 5w-20 to 20w-50 does just fine.
I've also seen dramatic drops in iron levels, when switching from the Mobil 1, 0w30 or 5w30 to Delvac 1 - particularly in pushrod V-8s, which seem to do better with thicker, ACEA A3/B4 rated, Xw-30's or 5w-40s....
The "problem" seems limited to the GF-4 versions of the Mobil 1, 0w-30/5w30 and to a lesser extent, their 10w30. The new "Extended Performance" versions of Mobil 1 do significantly better in this regard. So I'd simply use that, even in a brand new vehicle.
Ted
I see low iron wear with ALL the grades of Amsoil - everything from 5w-20 to 20w-50 does just fine.
I've also seen dramatic drops in iron levels, when switching from the Mobil 1, 0w30 or 5w30 to Delvac 1 - particularly in pushrod V-8s, which seem to do better with thicker, ACEA A3/B4 rated, Xw-30's or 5w-40s....
The "problem" seems limited to the GF-4 versions of the Mobil 1, 0w-30/5w30 and to a lesser extent, their 10w30. The new "Extended Performance" versions of Mobil 1 do significantly better in this regard. So I'd simply use that, even in a brand new vehicle.
Ted
ted, i belong to a ford diesel site thedieselstop.com. and it just seems that everytime i read a post titled something like(help with my high iron levels) it is always amsiol or delvac 1. i have heard that there is a new amsiol diesel oil that is group III group IV blend to help with these issues? -ed.
Synthetic and conventional names/terms for oil, now, mean little.
Proper oil flow and proper lube formulation are more important than a label on the bottle/brand.
The supposition that Amsoil or any "syn" HDD oil causing high iron is pure internet poopoo.
Filtration issues, interupted oil flow from crappy bypass installations ( design) , chipped units, transient overheating the head, elevated soot levels, and fuel adds that are attacking alloys are more the problem than ANY current HDD Oil I see in analysis.
Proper oil flow and proper lube formulation are more important than a label on the bottle/brand.
The supposition that Amsoil or any "syn" HDD oil causing high iron is pure internet poopoo.
Filtration issues, interupted oil flow from crappy bypass installations ( design) , chipped units, transient overheating the head, elevated soot levels, and fuel adds that are attacking alloys are more the problem than ANY current HDD Oil I see in analysis.
terry, i have read many of your posts and i have the upmost respect for you. you are (the final word in oil) as far as i am conserned. but with that said i still stand by my claim that most of the high iron coplaints i see are with pao oils. and i have seen firsthand cummings 4 valve crossheads with excessive wear in fleets that were running the then new delvac 1. when i was a service manager at a volvo white/western star dealer we always sent cat engine oil in for analysis. they gave you a free sample bottle with the kit. and we would get a copy of the resaults at the dealership. as well as one sent to the customer. that is were i base most of my claims of higher iron with delvac 1. i also have been told by a chevron and a mobil tech that with normal oci's in a normal climate that there hdd dino oils would give less wear. the chevron tech said (hands down no question). that is just my view on this. and i know that you are far more knowledgeable about oils than 99.9999% of the people on this earth. that is why i will be sending you my sample from my 7.3psd for your analysis and interpretation
Hi,
I have just reviewed the iron levels at OCI in the most recent engine tear down using Delvac 1 5w-40 (mostly CH-4)
Over 1m kms (620k miles) and at an average OCI of 90kkms (54k miles)they were;
Soot % level is shown in ()
1 - 116ppm (2.4)
2 - 161ppm (3.6)
3 - 123ppm (3.6)
4 - 221ppm (3.8)
5 - 124ppm (3.6)
6 - 150ppm (3.6)
7 - 177ppm (3.6)
8 - 159ppm (3.6)
9 - 147ppm (4.1)
This engine valve train was wear free - all pads, and bearings were re-used. The cam shaft was like new. Valve train was adjusted twice in 1m kms
(A MANN-HUMMEL centrifuge separator is used and my limits are 150ppm for iron and 3.5% soot)
Now if only Ted would stop getting excited about issues of very much emotion and no substance..........! According to Ted there is one million tons of trashed valve train components stored somewhere - the problem is we cannot find it - neither can he!
My experience backs up Terry's comments!
Regards
Doug
I have just reviewed the iron levels at OCI in the most recent engine tear down using Delvac 1 5w-40 (mostly CH-4)
Over 1m kms (620k miles) and at an average OCI of 90kkms (54k miles)they were;
Soot % level is shown in ()
1 - 116ppm (2.4)
2 - 161ppm (3.6)
3 - 123ppm (3.6)
4 - 221ppm (3.8)
5 - 124ppm (3.6)
6 - 150ppm (3.6)
7 - 177ppm (3.6)
8 - 159ppm (3.6)
9 - 147ppm (4.1)
This engine valve train was wear free - all pads, and bearings were re-used. The cam shaft was like new. Valve train was adjusted twice in 1m kms
(A MANN-HUMMEL centrifuge separator is used and my limits are 150ppm for iron and 3.5% soot)
Now if only Ted would stop getting excited about issues of very much emotion and no substance..........! According to Ted there is one million tons of trashed valve train components stored somewhere - the problem is we cannot find it - neither can he!
My experience backs up Terry's comments!
Regards
Doug
Doug agree 100%
bruce CLS
bruce CLS
Regarding JBJ's question of "is there increased valve train wear with synthetics, specifically Mobil Delvac 1. From someone who deals with Delvac 1 each and every day, with trucks both on and off-highway, "NO, valvetrain wear is NOT an issue with Mobil Delvac 1..."
Is that a straightforward enough answer to your question?
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
Is that a straightforward enough answer to your question?
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
JBJ, regarding your comment "I don't doubt may engines run a very long time on this synthetic or that synthetic. It just seems synthitics are not miracle cure the marketers would suggest they are."
I work with fleets that have been running Delvac 1 for over 20 years. Cummins, CAT, Detroits. Many in very difficult combined city stop and go/highway, with over 1,000,000 miles on engines with all original components. NO CAMSHAFT FAILURES.. PERIOD, nada, zilch....
This is literally hundreds of trucks/reefers...
However, in each case, these engines have regular valve lash/injector checks.. The reason for my question early on is that as a lube engineer, the #1 cause of premature camshaft failure IS non-adjustments of valve lashes, especially in newer high performance diesel engines. (more radical cam profiles). Never got an answer.
However, from my real world experience, with properly adjusted & maintained systems, camshaft wear is NOT an issue...
So, I am no longer asking questions, just answers..............
George Morrison, STLE CLS
I work with fleets that have been running Delvac 1 for over 20 years. Cummins, CAT, Detroits. Many in very difficult combined city stop and go/highway, with over 1,000,000 miles on engines with all original components. NO CAMSHAFT FAILURES.. PERIOD, nada, zilch....
This is literally hundreds of trucks/reefers...
However, in each case, these engines have regular valve lash/injector checks.. The reason for my question early on is that as a lube engineer, the #1 cause of premature camshaft failure IS non-adjustments of valve lashes, especially in newer high performance diesel engines. (more radical cam profiles). Never got an answer.
However, from my real world experience, with properly adjusted & maintained systems, camshaft wear is NOT an issue...
So, I am no longer asking questions, just answers..............
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Whenever I see elevated wear numbers in light duty diesels, it's almost always due to engine mods that let in too much dirt and/or significantly increase the concentration of soot or raw fuel in the lubricant. In particular, these high flow induction systems tend to be "bad actors" and account for more instances of accelerated engine wear than anything else.
Stock diesel engines with low silicon, soot and fuel dilution, generate excellent spectro results - regardless of the type of lubricant used....
Stock diesel engines with low silicon, soot and fuel dilution, generate excellent spectro results - regardless of the type of lubricant used....
"Whenever I see elevated wear numbers in light duty diesels, it's almost always due to engine mods that let in too much dirt and/or significantly increase the concentration of soot or raw fuel in the lubricant."
It's also a reason for higher warranty costs for everyone else, as people think it's ok to 'rip off the dealer' by using stacked boxes, foam filters, etc., and expect the maker to cover the costs when things break.
It's also a reason for higher warranty costs for everyone else, as people think it's ok to 'rip off the dealer' by using stacked boxes, foam filters, etc., and expect the maker to cover the costs when things break.
Specifically with regard to camshaft wear and Delvac 1. There was an informal study done a while back relative to Volkswagen TDI diesels and camshaft wear rates. One technician found again and again that there was a significant measurable wear rate increase with mineral based oils vs. Mobil Delvac 1. In fact, he found almost immesurable wear for the Delvac 1 lubricated engines. This particular series of TDI used a non-roller cam combined with fairly radical lift; i.e. very high load factors putting an extreme test to lubrication oils...
Thus a very high use of Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic with VW TDI owners.
George Morrison
Thus a very high use of Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic with VW TDI owners.
George Morrison
Hi,
GeorgeCLS - you said;
"This particular series of TDI used a non-roller cam combined with fairly radical lift; i.e. very high load factors putting an extreme test to lubrication oils...
Thus a very high use of Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic with VW TDI owners."
This is the same with a large number of enthusiast MB diesel car owners of all engine types
Doug
GeorgeCLS - you said;
"This particular series of TDI used a non-roller cam combined with fairly radical lift; i.e. very high load factors putting an extreme test to lubrication oils...
Thus a very high use of Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic with VW TDI owners."
This is the same with a large number of enthusiast MB diesel car owners of all engine types
Doug
I can assure you, if you call Hendrick Motor Sports and ask them what oil they are using, it is most certainly not 0w30.
Ask Kent Ford the same question next time you bump into him...Robert
Worked for MBZ and drive a 1978 Turbo Diesel on a daily basis. First engine went 750,000 miles without an overhaul.
Valve adjustment affects camshaft wear in these vehicles, not oil quality, unless it isn't changed regularly...Robert
Hi,
Robert I worked for and with DB too - at Sindelfingen, Worth and Unterturkheim as well as OZ. Good or bad, relevant or not? -well..............!
You said;
"Valve adjustment affects camshaft wear in these vehicles, not oil quality, unless it isn't changed regularly..."
Well, oil "quality" is a contentious issue and I have seen many camshafts trashed through using oils of an incorrect quality
The "Global Performance Specifications for Light Duty Diesel Engines (Global DLD 1,2,3)" for instance use the OM602A test protocol. ACEA use it too for their "E" ratings and in each case viscosity and wear (cam/cylinder) form part of the "quality" testing protocol
Used oil's quality - (when not "changed regularly")is a real concern too. The "changed regularly" issue of course dpends a lot on the original oil's quality!
Using and old "quality" ML-MM-MS oil in today's engines (DOHC, VANOS, rollers and etc) would indeed produce cam wear of amazing levels in some engines - and perhaps not so in others
So we could/should say that oil quality, valve train adjustment and servicing all have an affect on cam wear - along with component design and etc. etc.
Many Benz engines of course have had hydraulic lash control for many years
This thread was really about a specific oil and IMHO GeorgeCLS's comments are very relevant - as mine are! And yours too!!
Doug
Robert I worked for and with DB too - at Sindelfingen, Worth and Unterturkheim as well as OZ. Good or bad, relevant or not? -well..............!
You said;
"Valve adjustment affects camshaft wear in these vehicles, not oil quality, unless it isn't changed regularly..."
Well, oil "quality" is a contentious issue and I have seen many camshafts trashed through using oils of an incorrect quality
The "Global Performance Specifications for Light Duty Diesel Engines (Global DLD 1,2,3)" for instance use the OM602A test protocol. ACEA use it too for their "E" ratings and in each case viscosity and wear (cam/cylinder) form part of the "quality" testing protocol
Used oil's quality - (when not "changed regularly")is a real concern too. The "changed regularly" issue of course dpends a lot on the original oil's quality!
Using and old "quality" ML-MM-MS oil in today's engines (DOHC, VANOS, rollers and etc) would indeed produce cam wear of amazing levels in some engines - and perhaps not so in others
So we could/should say that oil quality, valve train adjustment and servicing all have an affect on cam wear - along with component design and etc. etc.
Many Benz engines of course have had hydraulic lash control for many years
This thread was really about a specific oil and IMHO GeorgeCLS's comments are very relevant - as mine are! And yours too!!
Doug
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