Calling for a Review of Australia's Gun laws

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Some percentage of gun owners will break the law, and of those some smaller percentage will either directly or indirectly result in shootings due to the incident. The rate in Australia appears to be low compared to the US, but it's confounded by different rates of gun ownership and crime rates. In any case gun violence appears to be less tolerated in Australia than in the US, looking at the laws passed in reaction to some high profile crimes.

http://sydney-central.whereilive.com.au/...ville-shooting/

THE father of an Orangeville boy who allegedly shot Josef Cruickshank was charged with gun offences late last night.

The 40-year-old Orangeville man presented himself to Camden police station at 2pm yesterday, where he was later charged with offences including possession of a loaded firearm as to endanger life.

Other charges included possessing an unauthorised firearm, not keeping a firearm safe and possessing an unregistered firearm.
 
Originally Posted By: 1sttruck
In any case gun violence appears to be less tolerated in Australia than in the US, looking at the laws passed in reaction to some high profile crimes.


Yeah, I mean, it's not like gun ownership in the US is protected by a constitution or anything.
 
"Yeah, I mean, it's not like gun ownership in the US is protected by a constitution or anything."

Certainly not like the NFA in 1934 which was passed in reaction to the killing of the mayor of Chicago during an attempt on FDRs life, or the GCA of 1968 which was passed in reaction the Kennedy assassination, or almost all gun laws in the US. The US just tolerates a lot more shootings than any other 1st world country.
 
So you equate the fact that we have a constitutional protection on the right to keep and bear arms, which alone has prevented a lot of gun control laws from passing, with the US having more tolerance for shootings?


Are you cracked? Don't answer. I already know that you are.
 
"So you equate the fact that we have a constitutional protection on the right to keep and bear arms, which alone has prevented a lot of gun control laws from passing, with the US having more tolerance for shootings?"

You suggested that the US doesn't pass gun laws in reaction to high profile crimes because they're 'protected by the constitution', I provided a couple of examples where that isn't the case. If you disagree please reread the statements above, and if you still can't understand that please stop here as it will be pointless to discuss anything else.


There are obviously many more examples I can provide, including even the recent ruling by the Supreme Court on the handgun ban in DC, where the Court suggested that DC can register handguns and license them for carry in the home, where the Court let stand existing laws, and where the Court specifically stated that it's not an absolute right.

The US tolerates more shootings than other 1st world countries, and it has for decades. The reason appears to be a combination of the willingness of gun dealers and owners to sell guns to people who will shoot other people, people who will shoot other people, and a society that tolerates such a thing more than other societies appear to. We don't tolerate packs of rabid dogs running thru the streets but I've seen people selling guns to obvious gang bangers at large gun shows. As a consequence some laws got passed, as doing something stupid with guns is why gun laws get passed.
 
Quote:
The US tolerates more shootings than other 1st world countries, and it has for decades. The reason appears to be a combination of the willingness of gun dealers and owners to sell guns to people who will shoot other people, people who will shoot other people, and a society that tolerates such a thing more than other societies appear to.

And exactly how are dealers supposed to know what their customers will do with the guns they sell them? Do you have the same view of car dealers that are willing to sell cars to those that drink?
I have ALREADY shown that there are a few select bad apples selling the majority of guns used in crimes AND that most people that have guns when arrested are ALREADY legally ineligible to have a gun.
If you still can't understand that please stop here as it will be pointless to discuss anything else.

There are about 5 times as many people killed "by" cars as with guns. Why is there no call to ban them? The answer is the spin and coverage by the nightly propaganda, not facts.

Car crashes are called accidents. Shootings are called tragedies.
Quote:
A 29-year-old California man, accused of mowing down 14 people on a Strip sidewalk, killing three, pleaded guilty but mentally ill Monday and agreed to a sentence of hundreds of years in prison.

On Sept. 21, 2005, Ressa drove a Buick sedan into a crowd of people on the Strip near Bally's resort, killing Gordon Kusayanagi, 52, of Hollister, Calif., Mark Modaressi, 26, of Irvine, Calif., and 60-year-old Richard Bradford of Renton, Wash., and injuring others.

Authorities said the crash occurred shortly after Ressa beat his mother unconscious and stole her car from her home in Rialto, Calif.

Ressa told police he was not on drugs when he drove up on the sidewalk in front of Bally's. He thought the pedestrians were armed "demons" who were trying to kill him, according to his arrest report.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/10174786.html
Did you hear about this? Probably not. Could you imagine the coverage if he had killed and injured these people with an AK47 or similar on the Las Vegas strip? It would have been national news for probably days.

Use a car and it's barely a blip. This is why I call it the nightly propaganda, and not "news".

http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?s=4442110
This is another example. A local officer was killed by a "cheap knock off assault weapon" (not the ineligible criminal that wielded it) and it was huge news for days. All you heard about was Officer Prendes and the weapon that killed him.
The same "news" channel in the link was running live polls sponsored by Handgun Control Incorporated (yes, it said right on the site) to see what people thought about the weapon.

Crime control is not their goal, gun control, and ultimatly people control is.
 
Tempest quote: Crime control is not their goal, gun control, and ultimatly people control is.

Benjamin Franklin quote: Never trust a government that does not trust its own citizens with guns.

Both are right on target!
 
Iam now reading up on how to get my gun license in Australia now that i have become interested in taking up shooting, and I can tell you, it is beyond me how they think making it difficult for target shooters would help crime levels. someone wanting a gun can buy it for cash on the black market pretty quick. dumb dumb dumb....

e.g. holding a sporting/target license i MUST shoot at a registered range at least 4 times a year to "prove" that I have a "genuine reason" for having a gun. While I probably would shoot at least once a month if not more, what a dumb idea. what if someone loses some interest or just can't make it, that means he has to surrender his license???? crazy.....
 
The Coalition for Gun Gontrol keep pointing out that every illegal firearm was once a legal firearm, and that's why they need to stop us sporting shooters.

It's a joke, as there simply aren't the number of pistol shooters out there to continue to supply the black market.

One of the biggest single events/supplies was when an entire container load of Glocks for the NSW Police Farce "fell" off the back of a train between Melbourne and Sydney. Didn't hear very much about THAT in the Main Stream Media
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
NSW Police Farce


LOL.gif


I don't see long arms being used very often for crime in any case.
 
Tempest, if I had a link, I'd post it everywhere.

There was a 10 second "allegedly lost" statement on the TV news one night and that's about all I saw of it. My neighbour, a retired railway fireman who is pretty well connected (in a number of spheres) assures me that there was a huge internal inquiry into how a container could be unloaded between stations.
 
train driver has buddy with unloading crane out in the sticks... he pulls up, crane lifts off container, replaces with similar with copied ID on the container... would only take what, 5 minutes?
 
crinkles, with the "rationalisation" that has taken place over the years, there's dozens of sidings sitting there with hand winched cranes available 24/7.

As to fireman, I played fireman one day at the local tourist railway.

5 tonnes of coal shovelled that day...the guys who did it every day, hauling freight would break me like a twig.
 
"There are about 5 times as many people killed "by" cars as with guns. Why is there no call to ban them? The answer is the spin and coverage by the nightly propaganda, not facts."

There has been a huge effort over the last five decades to reduce vehicle deaths. Accients are different homicides, something the courts and just about everyone else understands. Looking at the FBI crime data for 2007 we see the following weapons used in murders, where the homicide rate just for firearms in the US is over twice that for all homicides in Australia.

Murder Victims by Weapon 2007 (rate per 100k is 5.6)
Total 14,831
Total firearms: 10,086
Knives or cutting instruments 1,796
Blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) 647
Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)1 854
Poison 10
Explosives 1
Fire 130
Narcotics 49
Drowning 12
Strangulation 134
Asphyxiation 108
Other weapons or weapons not stated 1,004

http://www.aic.gov.au/research/homicide/stats/

Over the past 17 years, the rate of homicide has fluctuated by 0.7 per 100,000 persons, ranging from a low of 1.3 to a high of 2.0. In the most recent review year (2005-06), Australia experienced a homicide victimisation rate of 1.5 per 100,000 population. Since 2001-02, there has been a declining trend in the incidence of homicide in Australia, but this downward trend has not continued for the 2005-06 year.


http://www.aic.gov.au/research/homicide/stats/weapon.html

On average, 21% of homicide victims were killed with a firearm between 1989-90 and 2005-06.
However, the use of firearms in homicide has decreased over the past 16 years, dropping below 20% from 2001-02 onwards.
14% of homicide victims in 2006 were killed with a firearm.
 
That's the stupid things that the anti gunners don't get.

People kill people at about the same rate.

They had press release after press release showing that suicides (with a firearm) were down nearly half after the gun buyback...never bothered to show that the overall rate had stayed the same.
 
Quote:
In 1996, following the tragic mass murder at Port Arthur in Tasmania, in which 35 died, Australia's national and state governments agreed to a massive gun confiscation. Beginning in 1997, over 643,000 firearms were "bought back" by the national government and destroyed, at a cost of over half a billion Australian dollars.

The effect was almost immediate: Gun crime went up.

In the first two years after the buyback, armed robberies rose by 44%, assaults by 9% and murders 3%.

Crime rates have since stabilized, or even inched down. But as a new peer-reviewed study by Samara Mc-Phedran, a post-doctoral research fellow in the school of psychology at the University of Sydney and chair of the International Coalition for Women in Shooting and Hunting, points out, the 1996 ban had no net effect on gun crime. To the extent that crime and suicide rates have declined in the past 12 years in Australia, they have merely continued downward trends begun long before the ban. The cause is demographic -- as the average age of the population has increased, violent crime and suicide has decreased --not legislative.

Similarly, following the horrific 1996 Dunblane slayings at a Scottish elementary school, the British government banned all private ownership of handguns. The restrictions

In 1996 the British government banned all private ownership of handguns and gun

crime skyrocketed

were so complete, the British Olympic shooting team was forced for a time to shuttle across the Channel to train in northern France.

The overall effect of the ban was the same as in Australia: Gun crime skyrocketed. Unlike in Australia -- where rates levelled off -- gun crime and other violent crimes have continued to soar in Britain. Last year alone, the increase was 4.3%.

In all, violent crime in Britain has increased by more than half in the past decade and the stockpile of handguns has increased by three million, almost all smuggled in via the black market.

According to a new study on the effectiveness of the handgun ban conducted by the Institute of Economic Analysis, "The ban's ineffectiveness was such that by the year 2000, violent crime had increased so much that England had the developed world's highest rate of violent crime, far surpassing even the U. S. A."

In the intervening years, the situation has only worsened.

Gun controllers like to claim this spike has been due to a sharp rise in non-gun violent crime -- stabbings, assaults, rapes and so on -- and, undeniably, part of it has been. (A sharp rise in the drug trade is most to blame.) This counterargument, though, is entirely immaterial to proposed bans, such as Mr. Miller's.

So what if some, or even much, of the rise in violent British crime involves no firearms? The advocates of gun bans, such as Mr. Miller, promise that confiscating the legal property of law-abiding sport shooters will make our streets safer, not merely cause criminals to take up other weapons.

There is no point banning guns if the thugs merely choose a knife or bat, instead. To the victim, the type of weapon is secondary. He or she wants the crime prevented, period. And bans don't reduce violent crime.

On Wednesday, former Liberal justice minister Alan Rock wrote in the Windsor Star that since his 1995 gun registry was implemented, "333 fewer Canadians die annually of gunshots." Homicides "with firearms are down. Suicides with firearms have dropped" and "domestic murders with firearms have plummeted."

All of which is true-- sort of--and entirely beside the point.

Fewer Canadians are murdered with firearms, commit suicide with firearms or murder their spouses using a gun. The trouble is, the overall rates for murder, suicide and domestic murder have not changed much. Criminals intent on committing murder or troubled people determined to take their own lives have simply switched to other weapons. They haven't stopped committing their acts, which is what politicians selling registries and bans always promise will happen.

Mr. Rock's registry, like the British and Australian bans, has done nothing to make streets and homes safer in absolute terms, even if they have managed to make both marginally safer from guns.

http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=8a43c279-0f6f-4068-abbc-7a91992f1e6a&k=26146&p=2
Banning guns typiclly make crime rates, of all sorts, go up.
Look at the rape, robbery, and assult rates in OZ. They are much higher than in the US.
Also:
http://www.geocities.com/gunpamphlets/AustralinBan.pdf
 
Tempest,
I think that correlating total crime to gun ownership restrictions is like the graph on global warming versus pirate numbers. An apparent link, albeit not real.

Oz's rate of violence is increasing at a rapid rate. Rapes, as you point out are very high. Our traditional model of gun ownership (self defence is not, and has never been a genuine purpose for firearm ownership in the country, so wouldn't prevent rape).

The one crime that DID increase markedly with the confiscation was home invasions, where self defence could be defended with a firearm.

The place is going crazy, I'll cede that.
 
"Banning guns typiclly make crime rates, of all sorts, go up.
Look at the rape, robbery, and assult rates in OZ. They are much higher than in the US."

Guns aren't banned in Australia, they're available but are more strictly regulated. Homicides went down, as did deaths due firearms, which was the desired affect. This is in spite of an increase in assault rates. If you think firearms have nothing to do with homicide rates then let the Australians do an experiment by placing crates of handguns, rifles, etc., and ammo around the cities, where anyone can pick what they want. Do you think homicide rates will really continue to decrease ?

A few years back the Economist was looking at gun violence in the US, and they observed, as we've also seen in Australia, that one is much more likely to see fights in clubs, at games, in public, etc., in England (Australia too) than in the US. The difference is that in the US one much more likely to see firearms being used, and since firearms are more lethal than fists, feet., clubs, etc. the US ends up with a much higher homicide rate.

Only about 40% or so of households in the US own firearms, but they're responsible for over 70% of homicides, in spite of the fact that almost 100% of households have knives, clubs, vehicles, etc.
 
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