Aussie gun laws - so as not to hijack Pablo

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Background
When I was a kid, I wanted to be a gunsmith, and a good one. Got my first .22 (Krico) at age 15.

At the time, almost anything was legal, although to own an SLR in the most of the states, you had to be a professional culler of vermin (wild cattle etc.)...Queensland and Tasmania allowed ownership of SLRs and AR15s. The other states stopped at SKS etc.

Personal Protection has never been considered a "Genuine Reason" to own a firearm, all applications were to be "sporting" (unless you are rich and famous, and there's another set of laws).

At the time, the then Premier of NSW was pushing for a complete and utter ban of all privately owned firearms. He took it to an election, and got annihilated ... His made a speech in 1987, which included the line "There will never be National Firearm Laws until there is a massacre in Tasmania"

Decided not to be a gunsmith, and chose a career that I thought at the time I could least retire from.

In 1996, about 6 weeks after Britain's Dunblane Massacre, I was driving, and listening to the radio, when news came across of a massacre at Port Arthur in Tasmania, with 35 people killed. Said to my Mrs, who was in the car..."There goes private gun ownership"

Massacre was allegedly performed by a bloke called Martin Bryant, a scarcely functioning mental deficient, one of whose alleged weapons was an AR15 which had been handed in to the Police in an amnesty in another state some years prior. In approximately a minute with this rifle, he killed 20 people, 19 head shots, wounded 12 others, firing from the hip, in an enclosed building sans hearing protection...and 29 shots fired(*)

National outrage of course.

Thousands of pages of legislation were wheeled out within weeks, much of it must have been waiting in the wings given the timeliness.

Prime Minister "met" sporting shooters, wearing a bullet proof vest (illegal to own in the country), and we got rolled.

All semi-auto longarms illegal, all pump shotguns illegal. Oz' famous gun buyback took place, a 0.2% tax placed on every worker...a legally owned 10-22, or mini 14 would get you $150-$200 back.An illegally owned SLR L1-A1 many thousands, as they tried to flush the big hitters out of the black market.

Statistics have shown a reduction in firearm homicide (admittedly starting at a massacre will help that trending), but if you look really closely, it's mostly suicides that are trending away from unavailable guns...they are still suiciding, just with ropes, ledges, cars etc.

(*) other strange co-incidences on the issue.
- Tasmania purchased a morgue bus at one stage capable of holding over 20 bodies. It got used but once.
- Local Police were called away to investigate a white powder, ensuring they couldn't get there.
- ASIO/ASIS personnel happened to be holidaying in the area en masse, and were recalled from their holidays to assist the investigation.
- (alleged) Perps mug shot was on television that night, even though he was under arrest and charged...no contempt of court.
- Witnesses stated that the bloke with the long blonde hair was not the one in the cafe.
- A royal commission (our highest review) was rejected as putting victim's families through too much
- The case, and everything pertaining to it is under "D notice", unavailable for national security reasons.
 
How did it affect me personally ?

I had to join a club to keep my 15th Birthday gift. At the time, I was putting 50-60 rounds a year through it, half sighting, 1/4 hitting, and 1/4 missing rabbits.

Joined a target club, liked it, and upped my ammo consumption to around 3,000 rounds that year. Won some trophies.

Bought a .223 bolt action (CZ527), played with it out to 600 yards.

Partner joined up, and we got her a Brno model 2 (really good thing).

Bought a B92 in .44Mag.

Later bought a Rossi break action .22LR/12gauge switch barrel for single shot comps, and an under lever air rifle.

Most of the blokes in the club are in a similar position, membership has quadrupled over a decade...I wish they'd publish ammo sales...it would tell a story.

Pablo's reference to not being able to shoot the .44 is a range template issue...I can hog hunt if I wanted to/had permission from a farmer, just can't use it at the local range...next town (70 miles away) has cowboy action, where I could shoot it on the range.

Reasonably costly. Licence costs $200 for 5 years. Each aquisition costs about $75 in fees and a waiting period to enable purchase.

I must allow the Police in sans warrant about every 5 years to inspect my safe storage.
 
But aren't there some restrictions by caliber and such?

I guess the part that would bug us the most would be the unwarranted inspection.

Thank God we a have a constitution, with the 2nd Amendment, of course.
 
The antis are trying to push against the .50BMG and .338 Lapua, along the lines of "what sporting shooter could possibly need one of these ?"...pushing the specific of sniping rifles, when any decent .223 can hit a dinner plate at 600 yards every time.

Ranges have restrictions based on their template and what's around them.

That's what did my .44 in, bore diameter. My range (not the country) is not licenced for anything over 10mm, .429 is 11mm. Silly thing is, that any of the super 30s is entirely legit. half inch black powder also not legit.

Other ranges, with other templates can shoot all sorts of more (or less) calibres.

I don't think that shooters really want to explore legally the "bigger than this" (and we think it's basically a military type diameter restriction), as to introduce muzzle energy and bullet construction would lead to an insane number of tables as to what's legal and not, and (knowing the place), leading to individual registration of wildcat cartridges.

I think there are calibre restrictions in pistols, but haven't explored that rabbit hole.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo


Thank God we a have a constitution, with the 2nd Amendment, of course.


We're only one supreme court justice away from losing it. The dissent in McDonald v. Chicago had no problem with an outright ban on handguns. I wouldn't count on that bunch to respect existing precedent.
 
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Pablo


Thank God we a have a constitution, with the 2nd Amendment, of course.


We're only one supreme court justice away from losing it. The dissent in McDonald v. Chicago had no problem with an outright ban on handguns. I wouldn't count on that bunch to respect existing precedent.


Sooo people like you are the ones driving up the gun and ammo prices...thanks a lot.
 
Read it for yourself - it's been on the Supreme Court website since it was handed down. Actually, you don't even need to read it - Justice Breyer has been taking his anti 2A show on the road lately.

Justice Stevens had some thoughts about the experiences of other "advanced" democracies, Australia for example, beginning at page 40 of his dissent. Read it for yourself.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
The huge gun "round-ups" (collections) er confiscations are because the people didn't pay the license fees?


What confiscations? are you asking ME about the U.K or Shannow about Oz?

I think Shannow already explained the Buy-Back program.
 
As far as the U.S is concerned. Collecting guns will never happen bc its just not possible. I can at some point see the right to CCW go away in some states.

So for me personally (at the age of 65) none of this will affect me.

But thanks for the info Shannow..interesting.
 
Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: Pablo
The huge gun "round-ups" (collections) er confiscations are because the people didn't pay the license fees?


What confiscations? are you asking ME about the U.K or Shannow about Oz?

I think Shannow already explained the Buy-Back program.


To him, not you. See my post header. He posted a gun dealer being cleaned out by the gov't awhile ago.

Quote:

All semi-auto longarms illegal, all pump shotguns illegal.


That's a problem.
 
The "buyback" was an amnesty in which people traded their newly illegal guns for a cheque. Those that were already highly illegal (like SLRs and AR15s in most mainland states) were very highly compensated ($7,000 in 1996 ???) to try to draw them out of the black market.

Police oft made out like bandits when non targetted firearms were handed in, Winchester Commemorative levers weren't on the targetted list, didn't attract compensation, and didn't got through the books, but into the trunk of a car.

Buyback didn't work very well, as there's still stuff seeping out of the woodwork decades later...gun dealer in the next big town was caught with literally hundreds of unregistered (illegal), and highly illegal stuff luck current Steyer aug, mortars, crossbows etc. aside from the likes of him, Grandad's .303 and .22 always pop up in house cleaning.

Local firearms museum went to court over whether they were entitled to compensation for a bunch of "spare" bren guns...they won, but the guns were torched.

Registered firearms almost never get used in crimes, but we are the easy targets.

If there's a domestic at your house, they will come in and confiscate everything. Recent court case held that as a housemate was licenced, and had his guns legally stored such that the couple engaged in the domestic had no access, the seizure was illegal.

Local international target shooter was charged with "allowing" his firearms to be stolen from a caravan on a rifle range (they got the rifles sans bolt - and being speciality target rifles, to get a bolt, they have to dob themselves in)...he had everything confiscated (his lawyer negotiated transfer to the vault of a gun dealer), could not touch a gun, or approach a range. It got laughed out of court by the judge, but as a person who had been charged of a gun crime, the Police Commissioner had to authorise his licence, and he had to apply individually to get each and every item back.

Michael Diamond (Aussie Olympic Shooter) lost his licence for improper storage in a motel room, when his ex vexatiously lodged a complaint. Court decided that a hard case chained to the bed at least demonstrated that he was doing everything in his power to comply, and turfed the charges.

Police seem to be trying every tactic, but in general, the courts are being reasonable.

Bloke in next town was in the barber, when the police walked in, asked for his licence, cut it up, and charged him with leaving firearms in the possession of a non licenced person. They attended his house to check his storage, then asked his wife (unlicenced) to see the registration number of the guns...she opened the safe...It's that easy. My safe keys are with me when I'm out, and my better half knows that we are allowed to ask for a more convenient time within a two week period.
 
I was familiar with history of the Port Arthur Massacre and it's impact on Australia's gun laws. Any time something like this happens there is a great outpouring of emotion and a call from the people to the politicians to "do something". This is when a country is at its most vulnerable with respect to gun rights. In the history of our country (America) we had a early founder that said something rather profound and relevant to this situation - "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Not only do they not deserve liberty or safety, history has tended to bear out the fact that they will loose both.

There are some in America who still remember this admonition, and so far we've done better than most in retaining our rights to bear arms, but we've given up too much already and at times our freedom has hung on by the most slender of threads.

It's too bad that Australia has gone down this path. I have Australian friends and have visited the country and have always found most average Australians to have a similar outlook on life and to be in many ways kindred spirits to the average American. Both being rather vigorous, red-blooded, can-do kinds of people. Unlike in many ways to our European progenitors who seem to have lapsed into a sort of vegetative state where they wait to be told what to do by their government.

The good news for the moment is that Australia is still basically a low crime country. But, rest assured that if that changes in the future the criminal element will not be deterred by your gun laws and you'll start to see the kind of armed criminal versus unarmed victim dynamic that has become such a rampant problem in the U.K. in recent years.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Registered firearms almost never get used in crimes, but we are the easy targets.

Yup..an easy way to show the masses that you are enacting a "Do Gooder Law". Whether it works or not is in the eye of the beholder.
 
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin was right on the money. It boils down to whether you'll accept the imposition on your freedoms or not. I know Aussie shooters will be welcomed in the US if they wish to experience more firearms related freedoms. Switzerland even more so. There, retired military weapons such as Maxims and other machine guns and artillery pieces go into the hands of the people and their collections, not to the scrap heap.
 
Better half and I had the pleasure of being in the US middle of last year.

We did not meet or talk to a single person that I would not have considered kindred.

I think you guys would have the same opinion of the people the we see whining about the bacon, eggs, and coffee in my town, as the American tourists that we saw complaining about the same stuff in Guyserville.

Guyserville was a majorly good time in my life.
 
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Originally Posted By: Win
Read it for yourself - it's been on the Supreme Court website since it was handed down. Actually, you don't even need to read it - Justice Breyer has been taking his anti 2A show on the road lately.

Justice Stevens had some thoughts about the experiences of other "advanced" democracies, Australia for example, beginning at page 40 of his dissent. Read it for yourself.

Yep, the Court is looking more and more at foreign law in order to get around the Constitutional limitations imposed on it.

All without Constitutional authority to do so. Judges will simply make stuff up so as to impose their own personal policy preferences.
 
Originally Posted By: engineerscott

The good news for the moment is that Australia is still basically a low crime country. But, rest assured that if that changes in the future the criminal element will not be deterred by your gun laws and you'll start to see the kind of armed criminal versus unarmed victim dynamic that has become such a rampant problem in the U.K. in recent years.


It's not such a crime free place these days. Gangland hits are at least monthly, and 4 out of 5 mornings, there's been another shooting/driveby...with all those unavailable guns.

Home invasions on the elderly are reasonably common now...with the perps preferring to break into occupied houses to get pointers on what's where.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Home invasions on the elderly are reasonably common now...with the perps preferring to break into occupied houses to get pointers on what's where.


There is such a thing as righteous anger. People should have it when this happens.

I guess this is just one of my pet peeves - preying on the weak and elderly.
 
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