Calling clinebarger 4l80e new puzzles

Vger

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The only big reverse questions of a used rebuilt 4l80e --BY OWNER-- are:

1--Do they have a lathe ?--usually not-So--Correct me if I am wrong .A new band installed with a used semi straight and measued carrier must be deglazed or 400 grit lightly sanded at least as the new band must form to imperfections to back out of the shop.
2- The servo pin dimensions in the ATSG manual must Mic out at the higher measurement when you compare your pin to the picture,Especially if you have a used carrier.
3--The direct reverse feed hole in the plate should be enlarged to .093 per your specs and especially for used OWNER rebuilt units
this should ,in theory correct most no reverse stock rebuild issues to start--What say you sir?
 
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Pretty much disregard all performance upgrades for now....Unless the unit is already Dual Fed?

If you build enough units....You WILL have some that come back/fail no matter how perfect you thought it was, Or how perfect you actually were in assembling the unit, There are factors not in your control.

I would've installed a pressure gauge before pulling the unit, Pressures are a vital cornerstone of transmission diagnostics.
 

Vger

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Tore everything down to check all seals and double air check. Well, Back when I built it, It was easier for me to buy a ready to install center support from an Ebay seller with good feedback--Well, Massive center support piston seals blowing fluid out the side of piston. I have learned a lesson today about trusting anyone selling refurbished parts.I must tear down everything myself . What a leak!!
 
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I'm not surprised.

Unfortunately, That leak won't cause a no reverse issue.

I'm slightly confused, And you may have clarified it & I didn't catch it.....
The O/D Roller Clutch not holding will cause a No Reverse & No Forward movement in D4......Did the No Reverse issue happen before the loss of D4?

Back to the Reverse/Band/Reaction Carrier questions.....
*Rarely does a builder deglaze the Reaction Carrier as it's not a Dynamic member unless you shift into L1 at speed during decel.
*I wouldn't recommended surfacing the Reaction Carrier on a lathe....You will remove too much material all in the name sake of making it look pretty. And remember.....Removing .005" of material actually equals .010" of reduced diameter.

I've heard of people having a hard time culling Reaction Carriers on "Smooth Carrier 4L80E units"......Well there not smooth from the factory & in fact they don't have that much of a better surface finish than a TH400 Reaction Carrier when it was new. The Grooved TH400 Band is just really aggressive & grooves the Carrier.

I've seen some really bad looking TH400 Reaction Carriers & Bands.....And the unit still have reverse. When GM/Hydramatic started re-engineering existing TH400 components for the 4L80E, The Lo/Reverse Band dragging on the Reaction Carrier was a thing they set out to reduce.

*Picture of '97 4L80E Reaction Carrier, Good 2500 100K mile core. Sitting next to my desk for the past 8-9 years....But you can clearly see the factory finish......The band was ever so slightly dragging right in the middle at the apply point. Any more than slightly dragging will damage a Smooth 4L80E Borg Warner Band in a hurry.

*Picture of a '87 TH400 Reaction Carrier, Good Jaguar XJS 50K mile core (All internals going in Chevy TH400 Case), Note the obvious dragging of the Band right in the middle at the apply point.
Bet money this combo will produce 100,000 MORE miles worth of trouble free service in a Work Truck & unlimited service in a pavement queen/street car.

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Vger

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Understood.Had Reverse engagement just not enough to move the truck.You could feel the bump into reverse and hear the drum rolling in the band.I knew right away to stop.Good engagement in D1-2-3 but D4 felt like it was slipping. All internals are perfect with nothing burned. Meticulous valve body inspection with improvements such as Transgo ACL valve procedure.New reverse 3rd checkball assy . AFL filter mod --Lo/reverse shuttle assy,-All electronics are new Delco or Borg with new harness.. I am leaning toward the China blue sprag and in fact the whole assy including drum,roller clutch,planet will be Delco NEW. Except the overrun drum which is new taiwan. There is simply nothing left I can think of.I am touching 62 years old and pulling this unit in & out actually hurts the next day but it tasks me and I shall have it .I am captain Ahab and it is now my own Moby ****. At least it is pretty-LOL
 

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Vger

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One thing troubles me sir--Isn't the direct drum active in reverse? If so the great amount of fluid pressure loss from the center support piston which supplies pressure to the direct would not be a factor in no reverse?
 
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Understood.Had Reverse engagement just not enough to move the truck.You could feel the bump into reverse and hear the drum rolling in the band.I knew right away to stop.Good engagement in D1-2-3 but D4 felt like it was slipping. All internals are perfect with nothing burned. Meticulous valve body inspection with improvements such as Transgo ACL valve procedure.New reverse 3rd checkball assy . AFL filter mod --Lo/reverse shuttle assy,-All electronics are new Delco or Borg with new harness.. I am leaning toward the China blue sprag and in fact the whole assy including drum,roller clutch,planet will be Delco NEW. Except the overrun drum which is new taiwan. There is simply nothing left I can think of.I am touching 62 years old and pulling this unit in & out actually hurts the next day but it tasks me and I shall have it .I am captain Ahab and it is now my own Moby ****. At least it is pretty-LOL
I saw on Sonnax website that you can vacuum test the valve body and check the vacuum on each circuit. Of course some circuits of modified valve bodies that have transbrake function will have variances compared to stock valve body application. If you did perform a vacuum check, curious as to what numbers you were seeing.
 

Vger

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It is stupid to buy a vacuum pump-plate assy. and all the other things Sonnax requires to test this valve body.It is wise to purchase a Sonnax remanufactured valve body with a lifetime warranty if mine does not perform this time. That is my plan.
I noticed varying torque specs for the valve body today as ATSG says 116 in lbs and everywhere on the internet and certain rebuild kits say 98 inch pounds. My ATSG manual is from 2003. I wonder what that extra 18 inch pounds would feel like on my big toe? I would also predict a deeper seating of valve body & case channels into the gaskets lessening even more cross leaks.
 
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It’s foolish to spend that kind of money yes, which is why you could make your own for $100 or so. Only worth it really if you plan to build a few units to get value out of the diy vac pump.

1 1/4 HP vac pump – Amazon - VH409 - $64.99
2 Brass Needle valves 1/8th NPT Amazon - B008E33AIO - $8 ea
1 vacuum gauge (0 to 30 inHg) – Amazon - PAG158L-V00 - $7.29
Thin clear silicone mat. A placemat from any cooking supply store or on Amazon - B0857B54F5 - $9.80
1 brass barb 1/8th hose fitting x 1/8 NPT – Amazon - B07CP3YFWL - $5.25
1 sq ft clear plastic - 1/4" thick. Amazon - B085L6LPVQ - $13.99
EDIT 1 brass barb 10-32 thread, 1/8th barb – Amazon - B0078RV200 while listed as 1/8" barb is actually 3/32" barb. B013RYLT6O appears to be correct.
1/8” flexible clear tubing – Amazon - B08M3XDQN1 - $7.99

1/4 flare nut model - Home Depot - 801559 SKU #54336 - $1.87 (not pictured)
2 Brass Tee's 1/8th NPT – Home Depot Model #802129 Store SKU #697509 - $5.19 ea
1 compression fitting (1/4 tube to 1/8th NPT) – Home Depot - Model #800729 Store SKU #585784 - $4.41
1 sq foot sheet of galvanized metal – Home Depot - Model #56034 Store SKU #1001195227 - $7.24
1 Brass end plug 1/8th ---drill a .035" hole (#65 drill bit) for calibration – Home Depot - Model #802299 Store SKU #697705 $2.89
1/4" Copper tubing – Home Depot - Model #1/4 R 10RE Store SKU #647788 - $4.98
1 Brass straight Union-I 1/8th NPT – Home Depot - Model #802469 Store SKU #698809 - $3.55 (longer is #699172)
1/4 in. Compression Brass Sleeve Fittings (3-Pack) Model #801049 Store SKU #536555 - $1.76 (extras)
#65 drill bit – Irwin 80165
412F061E-880E-4DB5-B6EC-3BE9D8B55C6B.jpeg
 

Vger

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Ok ---Add all that up and then say you discover 2 bad valves and bores--Look up sonnax 4l80 reamer and add that cost to all of it-Now add in their oversized valves -How many more hours and wait time ? -I'm sorry -Unless you do this for a living ,I don't see it. It is even cheaper for the professional shop to mark it up and offer a rebuilt valve body with warranty . I myself have spent hours measuring,cleaning,inspecting reassuring myself that it is tight and should meet the specs for my needs. Usually it does and I have a 1995 4l60e that I am driving right now that was a dirty burned black mess using the same rules of rebuilding that I always have and it is so perfect that it is silent while operating but what if ? Clinebarger said it first--You never know--Well I know this--From now on ,and think of cost, I will purchase a reman pump and quality brand specific pieces with warranty. I will pressure test at startup.I have been lucky up till now in my rebuilding .I now am really starting to believe the old saying--Time is money

And might I add this concerning vacuum pumps--I am a master HVAC tech with expensive vacuum pumps that are able to remove moisture and air in CLOSED systems not open atmospheric wet. I have no intention of using them for experimental use-They will quickly be destroyed playing around. I discovered many dollars ago that they hate moisture and contaminates. If you play with a vacuum pump ,change the oil frequently even if you think the oil LOOKS clean. Then seal it when stored as the specific vacuum oil itself collects moisture.
 
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Vger

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The problem of no reverse has been mostly solved.It is the blue aftermarket sprag for sure. Sitting at my bench today ,and I have 2 new aftermarket sprags or roller clutches part 34417a. , I also have a new Delco planet and new Taiwan overrunn drum. I was just swapping stuff around with and without the clutch pack installed and sure enough it freewheeled left & right with the new planet. Swapped sprags and it locked.Kept swapping back & forth and sometimes it would lock and other times not. Sticker on front says .196 rollers.They measure .194 on both. This is what I meant by intermittent in the beginning of this thread. I have written to Raybestos powertain to see if they will investigate and post some news on this issue.I have a video if you want an email just ask,this site won't accept it ,says it's too large
 

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One thing troubles me sir--Isn't the direct drum active in reverse? If so the great amount of fluid pressure loss from the center support piston which supplies pressure to the direct would not be a factor in no reverse?

Fluid is only applied to the Intermediate Clutch Piston in 2nd, 3rd, & 4th gears.

There are 4 separate circuits in the Center Support....
*Intermediate Clutch.
*Direct 3rd Clutch.
*Direct Reverse Input.
*Lube Circuit.

Of coarse "Dual Feeding" combines the 3rd Clutch & Reverse Input for better clamping power in 3rd gear. Which is why the Reverse Input Feed needs to be plugged or 3rd apply oil would leak out the exhausted Reverse Input Feed.
 
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The problem of no reverse has been mostly solved.It is the blue aftermarket sprag for sure. Sitting at my bench today ,and I have 2 new aftermarket sprags or roller clutches part 34417a. , I also have a new Delco planet and new Taiwan overrunn drum. I was just swapping stuff around with and without the clutch pack installed and sure enough it freewheeled left & right with the new planet. Swapped sprags and it locked.Kept swapping back & forth and sometimes it would lock and other times not. Sticker on front says .196 rollers.They measure .194 on both. This is what I meant by intermittent in the beginning of this thread. I have written to Raybestos powertain to see if they will investigate and post some news on this issue.I have a video if you want an email just ask,this site won't accept it ,says it's too large

Do you have a Delco Roller Clutch on the way? Amazon show to have 1 left.
 

Vger

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The Delco roller clutch arrived today. The rollers are exactly .195 X 12 rollers. Again the fakes are .194 x 12 rollers. I have tried for an hour and I can't get it to fail like the others. I guess the telltale sign was the sticker on the container stating .196 UNTRUE--WHY?? Deception from the start? GFX out of Florida distributes these to WIT. The other I bought from an ebay seller who does not care what they measure.

You can open a return though ebay, or contact ebay. No further messages will be replied to on this topic. Instructions have been given and returns are free.​


Thank you

Rich
Wide World Transmission Parts

Greed is astounding--The old I don't care when asked about measurements on transmission parts-What if it killed someone?

I want to clearly point out again that I have 2 sets of everything--drums,planets,rollers. One is all new and the other is used. I can make the .194 rollers fail on both. The ACDelco old stock 12431003 is spot on perfect.
 
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Most GFX stuff is trash & I've told my WIT rep as much. Got a GFX TH400 bushing kit & the Center Support Bushing is way out of spec.....Sun Gear Shaft fit looser in the new bushing then the worn one.......Had to get a Durabond set off E-bay.

Then the great 4L60E Corvette Servo shortage of '21/'22, Bought some from Summit....Complete TRASH. They attempted to copy Sonnax & use D-Rings....Well that's all fine & good but the rings where undersized & didn't come close to passing an Air Test, Though I knew that because the Servo fit loose in the bore.
So I try the scarf cut teflon rings in the overhaul kit.....That don't fit into the grooves of the servo pistono_O. Had to widen the grooves .001"on a lathe.

We're in for quite a ride on the parts situation, 12431003 has been discontinued.....Though I do know a couple GM dealers that have them on the shelf & the 20 I have in stock. Think I'll just buy all of them I can.

Thanks for taking the time to measure the rollers as it gives me some new data as well, Guess i've been dodging bullets by using Delco Roller Clutches. You never really think about stuff 'til it fails.
 

Vger

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GFX and the lady CEO are already emailing me that it isn't them at all, That all of their sprags are Borg raybestos Etc. .When I replied with the facts they are now worried aout their national accounts . Who are you and what are your accounts ?etc..I spoke to the tech builder at WIT and he genuinely sounded concerned & promised to look into this. You and the other power builders should push this down companies throats. We surely will be ruined if we allow our own measurements and standards to be intentionally ruined by other countries. Rock on Clinebarger ,You surely have made a difference in this industry and I will be in touch again soon with questions rarely asked--Vger
 
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Custom transmission building is a niche market, And with all the local Drag Strips closed down....I haven't built a FULL competition unit in over 3 years.
Jake's is relatively close to me & I can't compete with him head to head as he has a team of builders & manufactures parts in-house. I'm just one guy that spent every penny I had to build a 2 bay garage & launch a business. All those build threads were made while I was Employed.....Building their name instead of mine.

And to be honest, Building TH400, TH350, 4L60E, 4L80E units is NOT all that profitable anyway because a good majority of cores have serious issues.
I don't see myself building many more TH350's because parts availability.....I lost money on the last one if you count the time to procure 3 cores to obtain enough parts to build a good one.

6L80E/6L90E units on the other hand are good money makers, Just not enough to operate my business off of.
 

Vger

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Now that the world is low on parts and who knows when we will ever see them return ,I was wondering about storing transmission friction clutches.I have mine indoors in a box and I read about age and delaminating of fiber discs. What are the facts and would it be better to store clutch frictions in buckets of ATF ??
 
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